miwo
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Post by miwo on Jul 2, 2020 1:06:15 GMT
Total Freedom literally has less freedom than normal creative servers. ^ This is honestly something we should be working against. Off the top of my head, this is more-less a literal creative server but with the option of going into survival. We don't really offer anything exclusive because of the amount of freedom servers now... If we were to increase our player base this would is something we need to actively work on. What's stopping a player from going onto a creative server with more players? We've always branded ourselves as a "Free-OP" server and honestly I always found that to be quite misleading. I think what we can do is still advertise ourselves as all-op, but instead of merely being a creative server where "builder" is substituted with "op", we have extra benefits to entice players like... - Mobdisguise
- Marriage
- Voxel Sniper
- I don't know many "fun-plugins" off the top of my head.
More concretely: I mean that the Total Freedom brand should be associated with everything that a normal creative (and survival for that matter too) would have, but with the extra perk of having all these fun and unique plugins that you would not otherwise have. This is nothing new from what the core-concept of Total Freedom was (and still is). The only thing that should seperate us from regular servers is the amount of freedom you get. |
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mibbzz
Club 4000 Member
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Post by mibbzz on Jul 2, 2020 4:12:43 GMT
The issue is, and always has been, that the end goal of this server has always been to become admin and eventually senior admin or exec. That's the play loop on this server, you're not going to retain players in any significant quantity that simply want to stay as players. We have always taken on wayyyy more staff than was needed at capacity, because becoming staff is simply part of the "end game" of the server. The actual niche of the server is the ability to use admin commands, but for those joining to benefit that niche, the next step will always be to attain status above those who already have admin perms.
This is a problem which always has existed, and while the server exists in the current state (which feasibly I never see changing) it will never change. The only difference will be the times of high player count, with an extremely high turnover rate, and low player count, also with an extremely high turnover rate.
This isn't a real issue for the server. Focusing on this won't fix anything, there's far more legitimate concerns to focus on if people want to see change into his server, but that requires listening to input from others more experienced in fields such as growing communities. Until those actions take place, taking actions like freezing admin applications will not help the server. It will hurt it further.
Also, I haven't read this thread because it's probably just stupid conversations about a stupid topic. If you want to help the server, focus on actual issues like incentivizing playtime and user engagement to maximize re-join rates.
The recent focus on stupid subjects, both as a criticism of how the server is being managed and by those managing the server, will not result in any change. The former at least is trying to look towards a future where some of the main issues aren't present, the current focus is a complete fuckup though. Literally this server would be extremely easy to advertise with a unique niche, and great branding, that simply won't happen with the track we've been going down for the past year plus though
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 6:33:37 GMT
The issue is, and always has been, that the end goal of this server has always been to become admin and eventually senior admin or exec. That's the play loop on this server, you're not going to retain players in any significant quantity that simply want to stay as players. We have always taken on wayyyy more staff than was needed at capacity, because becoming staff is simply part of the "end game" of the server. The actual niche of the server is the ability to use admin commands, but for those joining to benefit that niche, the next step will always be to attain status above those who already have admin perms. This is a problem which always has existed, and while the server exists in the current state (which feasibly I never see changing) it will never change. The only difference will be the times of high player count, with an extremely high turnover rate, and low player count, also with an extremely high turnover rate. This isn't a real issue for the server. Focusing on this won't fix anything, there's far more legitimate concerns to focus on if people want to see change into his server, but that requires listening to input from others more experienced in fields such as growing communities. Until those actions take place, taking actions like freezing admin applications will not help the server. It will hurt it further. Also, I haven't read this thread because it's probably just stupid conversations about a stupid topic. If you want to help the server, focus on actual issues like incentivizing playtime and user engagement to maximize re-join rates. The recent focus on stupid subjects, both as a criticism of how the server is being managed and by those managing the server, will not result in any change. The former at least is trying to look towards a future where some of the main issues aren't present, the current focus is a complete fuckup though. Literally this server would be extremely easy to advertise with a unique niche, and great branding, that simply won't happen with the track we've been going down for the past year plus though ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this Anyways, my two cents: I really am going to go through TFM and remove a lot of the "fun" things for admins. Personally joining this server in 2012 my goal wasn't to become an admin, but starting 2015 it did become that. While I can't break this cycle, it certainly can be reduced. I feel like our greatest issue with getting new players and holding them is the way we market the server. Everyone seems to want to hope that a youtuber will come, do some video on the server, and wow we get big. It's thinking like this that will lead to failure. Using people as a tool is never what I want to do, and never what I want people to think of the server and think, which is why I really don't like the idea of anyone making deals with youtubers to begin with. It's a shitty practice, and lots of small people try to do it, only to crash and burn. We need to look at the times when our player counts were maxed, and when we started to decline. I personally noticed a sharp decline as it was starting, I think the beginning of it was the beginning of the US school year in either 2016 or 2017. And from there it just kept going to shit. Our discord server sits with about 300-400 active members (not necessarily chatting, just online on discord). We have a big community sitting on the discord server, we just need them to engage more on the server. I have no experience marketing at all. I don't even know if anyone here really knows the tricks of the trade here either. We have an original concept, originality is key getting attention. We just have to find better ways of reaching new audiences. Retention is going be difficult though, because unlike minigame servers where people stay to keep raising their score and re-playing minigame. The retention key there is that it's actually fun. The key there is that it's fun. Our main retaining point was mostly to get admin. Once I reduce this, we have to build another retention point. Hopefully in the coming months server events will become a primary retention point. We just have to keep doing new and interesting things without breaking the core concept of the server. |
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Gommeh
Veteran Member
dammit ryan and rylie
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Post by Gommeh on Jul 2, 2020 7:59:13 GMT
Its impossible to only have the "hard working" administrators left. Its just not feasible with the resources we have to find out who is the "best" admins are. ontop of this "best" is really subjective and imo you can't be the "best" admin because most scenarios related to administration on TF is unique I agree with this. While I may joke about it on the server (namely with that giant sign at spawn) being an admin should be hard work, and some of the admins who aren’t very active in the community deserve to be removed from status with more restrictions on their potential reinstatement. A good admin doesn’t reinstate to their position only a minute after joining the server again after a couple months. There have been some people - not naming names - that have abused the poor reinstatement system in the past, and I’m glad that we are starting to move in the right direction with regards to the new activity requirements and encourage the executives to keep modifying the requirements for reinstatement as they see fit. I also feel like the reason we aren’t retaining as much of a player base as we used to back in 2014-15ish is because of the sheer amount of restrictions we have placed on freedom since then. If we remove the freedoms mentioned, are we really staying true to what Mark had envisioned when he created the server? I’m sure he would be absolutely pissed if he saw what we’ve managed to turn the server into compared to what it was like when he left. Also, let’s say that the player surge from the YouTuber does happen for a little bit after the video(s) are published. If those additional players believe that this server doesn’t give players much freedom at all, will they want to keep playing here? No. Of course not. Don’t get me wrong, I love this server and will be here until the day TF is no more, no matter what. But having said that, these are some serious issues we will have to overcome if we want to survive as a server. And I’m honestly willing to do whatever I can to make sure TotalFreedom is the best server we can make it. |
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AshazTGA
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Post by AshazTGA on Jul 2, 2020 8:38:57 GMT
I haven't read any of the other replies after page 1, but anyway
This is a very real issue, in Asian times (like GMT+4 to GMT+12) there may be a lot of admins on or very few admins with many players. If we are to increase our playerbase, we need to spend money, push our limits and increase our chances. I support whatever decision, which the person who manages our personality as a server, makes. I believe it is the Creative Designer and if it is, they got that job for a reason. However, just getting a YouTuber with millions of views to shout the server out isn't good.
People watch YouTube videos on a roll. Let's say he made that video and I just went onto YouTube. It was just uploaded. I'd click that first as it's in my eyeview and then watch that video. If I was bored, then I would move to another one and probably go on a roll. This is how it works for a lot of people unless you are looking for something specific from one guy.
By the time the person watches their fifth video, they might even forget about TotalFreedom. YouTubers are good, don't get me wrong. But when someone's on a roll, they will probably forget half of the info in the video.
We should make a rule saying only 1 admin per 6 OPs or even 10 OPs is fine, and if there are 20 players then only 2 admins should go on. If any others wish to be going on they should go into vanish and then deal with issues from there.
As for the YouTuber, who even is it?
Edit: A lot of admins also go AFK in game, there's nothing wrong with that but that's also why more decide to come on. Maybe something should be done about that? I don't know though.
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miwo
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Post by miwo on Jul 2, 2020 9:53:12 GMT
I haven't read any of the other replies after page 1, but anyway This is a very real issue, in Asian times (like GMT+4 to GMT+12) there may be a lot of admins on or very few admins with many players. If we are to increase our playerbase, we need to spend money, push our limits and increase our chances. I support whatever decision, which the person who manages our personality as a server, makes. I believe it is the Creative Designer and if it is, they got that job for a reason. However, just getting a YouTuber with millions of views to shout the server out isn't good. People watch YouTube videos on a roll. Let's say he made that video and I just went onto YouTube. It was just uploaded. I'd click that first as it's in my eyeview and then watch that video. If I was bored, then I would move to another one and probably go on a roll. This is how it works for a lot of people unless you are looking for something specific from one guy. By the time the person watches their fifth video, they might even forget about TotalFreedom. YouTubers are good, don't get me wrong. But when someone's on a roll, they will probably forget half of the info in the video.
We should make a rule saying only 1 admin per 6 OPs or even 10 OPs is fine, and if there are 20 players then only 2 admins should go on. If any others wish to be going on they should go into vanish and then deal with issues from there. As for the YouTuber, who even is it? Edit: A lot of admins also go AFK in game, there's nothing wrong with that but that's also why more decide to come on. Maybe something should be done about that? I don't know though. Why do you reply if you havent even read the thread? |
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AshazTGA
Veteran Member
Posts: 317
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Post by AshazTGA on Jul 2, 2020 9:58:07 GMT
I haven't read any of the other replies after page 1, but anyway This is a very real issue, in Asian times (like GMT+4 to GMT+12) there may be a lot of admins on or very few admins with many players. If we are to increase our playerbase, we need to spend money, push our limits and increase our chances. I support whatever decision, which the person who manages our personality as a server, makes. I believe it is the Creative Designer and if it is, they got that job for a reason. However, just getting a YouTuber with millions of views to shout the server out isn't good. People watch YouTube videos on a roll. Let's say he made that video and I just went onto YouTube. It was just uploaded. I'd click that first as it's in my eyeview and then watch that video. If I was bored, then I would move to another one and probably go on a roll. This is how it works for a lot of people unless you are looking for something specific from one guy. By the time the person watches their fifth video, they might even forget about TotalFreedom. YouTubers are good, don't get me wrong. But when someone's on a roll, they will probably forget half of the info in the video.
We should make a rule saying only 1 admin per 6 OPs or even 10 OPs is fine, and if there are 20 players then only 2 admins should go on. If any others wish to be going on they should go into vanish and then deal with issues from there. As for the YouTuber, who even is it? Edit: A lot of admins also go AFK in game, there's nothing wrong with that but that's also why more decide to come on. Maybe something should be done about that? I don't know though. Why do you reply if you havent even read the thread? Because normally it's just full of unnecessary drama no one wanted. I could list a few examples if you want. |
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miwo
Veteran Member
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Post by miwo on Jul 2, 2020 10:57:02 GMT
The issue is, and always has been, that the end goal of this server has always been to become admin and eventually senior admin or exec. That's the play loop on this server, you're not going to retain players in any significant quantity that simply want to stay as players. We have always taken on wayyyy more staff than was needed at capacity, because becoming staff is simply part of the "end game" of the server. The actual niche of the server is the ability to use admin commands, but for those joining to benefit that niche, the next step will always be to attain status above those who already have admin perms. This is a problem which always has existed, and while the server exists in the current state (which feasibly I never see changing) it will never change. The only difference will be the times of high player count, with an extremely high turnover rate, and low player count, also with an extremely high turnover rate. This isn't a real issue for the server. Focusing on this won't fix anything, there's far more legitimate concerns to focus on if people want to see change into his server, but that requires listening to input from others more experienced in fields such as growing communities. Until those actions take place, taking actions like freezing admin applications will not help the server. It will hurt it further. Also, I haven't read this thread because it's probably just stupid conversations about a stupid topic. If you want to help the server, focus on actual issues like incentivizing playtime and user engagement to maximize re-join rates. The recent focus on stupid subjects, both as a criticism of how the server is being managed and by those managing the server, will not result in any change. The former at least is trying to look towards a future where some of the main issues aren't present, the current focus is a complete fuckup though. Literally this server would be extremely easy to advertise with a unique niche, and great branding, that simply won't happen with the track we've been going down for the past year plus though ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this Anyways, my two cents: I really am going to go through TFM and remove a lot of the "fun" things for admins. Personally joining this server in 2012 my goal wasn't to become an admin, but starting 2015 it did become that. While I can't break this cycle, it certainly can be reduced. I feel like our greatest issue with getting new players and holding them is the way we market the server. Everyone seems to want to hope that a youtuber will come, do some video on the server, and wow we get big. It's thinking like this that will lead to failure. Using people as a tool is never what I want to do, and never what I want people to think of the server and think, which is why I really don't like the idea of anyone making deals with youtubers to begin with. It's a shitty practice, and lots of small people try to do it, only to crash and burn. We need to look at the times when our player counts were maxed, and when we started to decline. I personally noticed a sharp decline as it was starting, I think the beginning of it was the beginning of the US school year in either 2016 or 2017. And from there it just kept going to shit. Our discord server sits with about 300-400 active members (not necessarily chatting, just online on discord). We have a big community sitting on the discord server, we just need them to engage more on the server. I have no experience marketing at all. I don't even know if anyone here really knows the tricks of the trade here either. We have an original concept, originality is key getting attention. We just have to find better ways of reaching new audiences. Retention is going be difficult though, because unlike minigame servers where people stay to keep raising their score and re-playing minigame. The retention key there is that it's actually fun. The key there is that it's fun. Our main retaining point was mostly to get admin. Once I reduce this, we have to build another retention point. Hopefully in the coming months server events will become a primary retention point. We just have to keep doing new and interesting things without breaking the core concept of the server. I hope that you mean you are going to give those "fun things for Admins to the general playerbase (within reason of course). I've also been a critic of this movement to get YouTubers to advertise our server. For one, I don't get why a YouTuber would simply want to "advertise" our server or even just make a video with the server included - as I have noted earlier, Total Freedom is essentially a creative server, but with less freedom. In the same vein, it is also wrong to say that this is merely due to a failure in marketting: if you tell people that your pile of shit is the best pile of shit there is, it is still just a pile of shit. I think a fair solution to this would be what I listed earlier with simply giving the average player more unique things to do on Total Freedom that would not be possible anywhere else, thus really bringing the "Freedom" back into "Total Freedom" ontop of this "best" is really subjective and imo you can't be the "best" admin because most scenarios related to administration on TF is unique I agree with this. While I may joke about it on the server (namely with that giant sign at spawn) being an admin should be hard work, and some of the admins who aren’t very active in the community deserve to be removed from status with more restrictions on their potential reinstatement. A good admin doesn’t reinstate to their position only a minute after joining the server again after a couple months. Why? If they are doing their job properly without expecting something in return, then I don't see any reason in having an arbitrary activity requirement. If you limit the amount of perks you get as an addition, then you would see a natural decrease in the amount of "superficial" Admins, who only keep their rank because they like the associated benefits. Remove the benefits, and you get fewer admins. Why do you reply if you havent even read the thread? Because normally it's just full of unnecessary drama no one wanted. I could list a few examples if you want. At no point in this thread has there been any instance of name-calling, power-posting or anything else you might call "drama" - your post is basically a regurtitation of everything that has already been discussed at length in this thread, and you would be aware of this, if you were to have read it. |
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elmon
Veteran Member
Asst. Server Liaison
fionn sucks
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Post by elmon on Jul 2, 2020 11:08:28 GMT
I don't get why a YouTuber would simply want to "advertise" our server or even just make a video with the server included - as I have noted earlier, Total Freedom is essentially a creative server, but with less freedom. Using the same logic, why would a YouTuber want to "advertise" a server which is essentially a survival server, where you are more likely to get griefed, and is more laggy (in reference to 2b2t)? It's more to do with how you present it, also, from what I hear from darth it is very likely going to happen. I agree with your point however that we should give OP's more plugins/fun features to distinguish ourselves from other creative servers. |
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Darth
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Server Liaison
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Post by Darth on Jul 2, 2020 11:18:04 GMT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this Anyways, my two cents: I really am going to go through TFM and remove a lot of the "fun" things for admins. Personally joining this server in 2012 my goal wasn't to become an admin, but starting 2015 it did become that. While I can't break this cycle, it certainly can be reduced. I feel like our greatest issue with getting new players and holding them is the way we market the server. Everyone seems to want to hope that a youtuber will come, do some video on the server, and wow we get big. It's thinking like this that will lead to failure. Using people as a tool is never what I want to do, and never what I want people to think of the server and think, which is why I really don't like the idea of anyone making deals with youtubers to begin with. It's a shitty practice, and lots of small people try to do it, only to crash and burn. We need to look at the times when our player counts were maxed, and when we started to decline. I personally noticed a sharp decline as it was starting, I think the beginning of it was the beginning of the US school year in either 2016 or 2017. And from there it just kept going to shit. Our discord server sits with about 300-400 active members (not necessarily chatting, just online on discord). We have a big community sitting on the discord server, we just need them to engage more on the server. I have no experience marketing at all. I don't even know if anyone here really knows the tricks of the trade here either. We have an original concept, originality is key getting attention. We just have to find better ways of reaching new audiences. Retention is going be difficult though, because unlike minigame servers where people stay to keep raising their score and re-playing minigame. The retention key there is that it's actually fun. The key there is that it's fun. Our main retaining point was mostly to get admin. Once I reduce this, we have to build another retention point. Hopefully in the coming months server events will become a primary retention point. We just have to keep doing new and interesting things without breaking the core concept of the server. I hope that you mean you are going to give those "fun things for Admins to the general playerbase (within reason of course). I've also been a critic of this movement to get YouTubers to advertise our server. For one, I don't get why a YouTuber would simply want to "advertise" our server or even just make a video with the server included - as I have noted earlier, Total Freedom is essentially a creative server, but with less freedom. In the same vein, it is also wrong to say that this is merely due to a failure in marketting: if you tell people that your pile of shit is the best pile of shit there is, it is still just a pile of shit. I think a fair solution to this would be what I listed earlier with simply giving the average player more unique things to do on Total Freedom that would not be possible anywhere else, thus really bringing the "Freedom" back into "Total Freedom" I agree with this. While I may joke about it on the server (namely with that giant sign at spawn) being an admin should be hard work, and some of the admins who aren’t very active in the community deserve to be removed from status with more restrictions on their potential reinstatement. A good admin doesn’t reinstate to their position only a minute after joining the server again after a couple months. Why? If they are doing their job properly without expecting something in return, then I don't see any reason in having an arbitrary activity requirement. If you limit the amount of perks you get as an addition, then you would see a natural decrease in the amount of "superficial" Admins, who only keep their rank because they like the associated benefits. Remove the benefits, and you get fewer admins. I don't think there's anything wrong with youtubers, but what really rubs me the wrong way is this ridiculous notion that it will solve all of our problems, which it won't. We need to make actual changes to the way we function, and that will require admins to think about more than the short term. I think removing the "fun" admin features is a good idea. I was saying to miwo yesterday, why do we really need the adminworld? The plot world is there, isn't wiped, and has build protection. Not to mention, plots can be expanded to accommodate any size build. The best part is that OPs and admins can both hang out there and have fun. Like how cool is that? That's what we should be focusing on - how to make things fun for normal players. And because admins are also players, any fun things added for OPs, admins will also have access to so it's not like everything fun is being stolen from you. I'd like to point people to this thread that fionn made. It shows how much fun can be had if OPs and admins did stuff together. Players shouldn't need admin to have fun, and I think the fact that admin seems to be an inevitability on this server is detrimental to our long term existence. I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but I think adminworld should be made view-only. I'd really like to see more instances of admins and ops having fun together in normal server areas. |
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miwo
Veteran Member
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Post by miwo on Jul 2, 2020 11:26:50 GMT
I don't get why a YouTuber would simply want to "advertise" our server or even just make a video with the server included - as I have noted earlier, Total Freedom is essentially a creative server, but with less freedom. Using the same logic, why would a YouTuber want to "advertise" a server which is essentially a survival server, where you are more likely to get griefed, and is more laggy (in reference to 2b2t)? It's more to do with how you present it, also, from what I hear from darth it is very likely going to happen. I agree with your point however that we should give OP's more plugins/fun features to distinguish ourselves from other creative servers. Except 2b2t actually has an active playerbase and is known as the biggest / oldest survival server in the game. |
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Alosion
Veteran Member
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Post by Alosion on Jul 2, 2020 12:01:08 GMT
Using the same logic, why would a YouTuber want to "advertise" a server which is essentially a survival server, where you are more likely to get griefed, and is more laggy (in reference to 2b2t)? It's more to do with how you present it, also, from what I hear from darth it is very likely going to happen. I agree with your point however that we should give OP's more plugins/fun features to distinguish ourselves from other creative servers. Except 2b2t actually has an active playerbase and is known as the biggest / oldest survival server in the game. Yes, but it became that way largely because of the efforts of a YouTuber. Before TheCampingRusher joined, the server was stagnating and decaying much like people consider TF to be right now. Exclusively with that creator's help did the server make such an incredible rebound. You could describe TF in a similar way that might have an effect like that, as the "oldest creative server". The incentive for someone to advertise and play on a dying 2b2t is the same as for someone to advertise TF: the server's concept is very unique, and there is rich history to the community. |
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miwo
Veteran Member
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Post by miwo on Jul 2, 2020 12:11:05 GMT
Except 2b2t actually has an active playerbase and is known as the biggest / oldest survival server in the game. Yes, but it became that way largely because of the efforts of a YouTuber. Before TheCampingRusher joined, the server was stagnating and decaying much like people consider TF to be right now. Exclusively with that creator's help did the server make such an incredible rebound. You could describe TF in a similar way that might have an effect like that, as the "oldest creative server". The incentive for someone to advertise and play on a dying 2b2t is the same as for someone to advertise TF: the server's concept is very unique, and there is rich history to the community. I highly doubt that 2b2t had a playerbase that averaged 5-15 players - also I never said I was in favour of haivng our server advertised. I just want our server to be presentable once we do it, so people join and stay around. |
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Alosion
Veteran Member
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Post by Alosion on Jul 2, 2020 12:22:44 GMT
Yes, but it became that way largely because of the efforts of a YouTuber. Before TheCampingRusher joined, the server was stagnating and decaying much like people consider TF to be right now. Exclusively with that creator's help did the server make such an incredible rebound. You could describe TF in a similar way that might have an effect like that, as the "oldest creative server". The incentive for someone to advertise and play on a dying 2b2t is the same as for someone to advertise TF: the server's concept is very unique, and there is rich history to the community. I highly doubt that 2b2t had a playerbase that averaged 5-15 players - also I never said I was in favour of haivng our server advertised. I just want our server to be presentable once we do it, so people join and stay around. At times no players at all, a rival server named Constantium had stolen a large chunk of the server's playerbase, hence "stagnating and decaying." I agree with you that it's in our best interests to have a presentable server. I haven't read all of the numerous debates, but I hope that we can all agree we want to reforge the server to not only appeal to new players but reward consistent members. |
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Waspter
Veteran Member
Advertising...
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Post by Waspter on Jul 2, 2020 15:05:32 GMT
My experience as being an op is that the server is simply so excruciatingly boring. There is literally nothing to do as an OP apart from building and maybe talking in chat, which most times is filled with nonsense. And don't get me started on the server instability - horrendous. Server downtime, as shown, is 6 hours in the past week - that's almost an hour per day. Imagine you just get on the server and it crashes for an hour. I wouldn't want to come back - in fact, when the server crashes I usually just leave and do something else. Another point is that are just no fun plugins to mess around with and have fun. I remember the Bending plugin we had - that actually was genuinely fun and kept me on the server for at least an hour at times. It had to be removed because of server instability (which should have been fixed by now, it's been a few months).
Bottom line, absolutely no incentive to stay as an OP of the server, and the only way to have "some" fun is to become an admin.
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