miwo
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Post by miwo on Jul 2, 2020 0:20:27 GMT
All this shit has already been discussed in the thread I linked earlier. totalfreedom.boards.net/thread/63413/admin-quality-quantity-partial-system totalfreedom.boards.net/thread/63415/admin-re-work-discussion To sum the threads up... - Rework the process for reinstating to Admin - In order to be able to retain your rank in the event that you are inactive you would have to post an inactivity notice or give a "valid" reason for your absence.
Leaving with no warning or resigning would thus mean you would have to climb your way up the Admin hierarchy again (i.e. if you were a Senior Admin, left, and then returned, you would then have to APPLY, not reinstate for Super Admin).
- Remove all fun incentives to become an Admin, and give more fun to Ops - Any "benefits" related to the Admin rank should only be to help with their job.
This would mean that the ADMIN WORLD would be REMOVED, - Give average players on Total Freedom more permissions - Less World Edit restrictions; less block restrictions; less MobDisguise restrictions, more FREEDOM to the average player
- Remove any Admin benefits that are not exclusively there to help them adminstrate - REMOVE ADMIN WORLD,
REMOVE any "fun" commands (e.g. /trail), and instead give them to all players on the server.
Tepid criticism led to Seth abolishing that system he introduced, and my own suggestions to bring it back have been rejected. It's not gonna happen unless the admins here think past their own short-term enjoyment in climbing up the hierarchy and push for it to happen, which is insanely unlikely considering a simple rank merge which would hurt nobody is already being rejected. Re-read my post: I extended it a bit. Yeah, that's the issue with democracy in a nutshell, whether it'd be for a MineCraft server or IRL. |
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miwo
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Post by miwo on Jul 2, 2020 0:22:19 GMT
Already a suggestion on file for that... ...I wasn't making a new suggestion, I was voicing my support for the original suggestion to close admin applications? Closing Admin applications is like putting a band-aid on a broken leg. The issue isn't that we have people applying for Admin - the issue is that people ALSO apply for Admin because there are certain benefits associated with the title. Remove the benefits, and you would have less people applying (or if they were to still apply, they would quickly resign). Being an Adminstrator is a voluntary duty that a player chooses to pick up because they want to improve upon the server. I see a lot of discussion regarding activity on the server, and that is all fine and dandy - however it makes little to no sense to center the discussion on activity itself. If you have an Admin that can only play once in a blue moon, but performs their duty and merely does this because they wish to help keep the server safe, then I think it is more than appropriate to keep them as an Admin. Activity is not a good indicator of willingness to help the server (to an extent of course). I think if we were to establish that activity requirements are nonsensical in nature, then we wouldn't even have the discussion in regards to reinstating as an Admin - if you were once an Admin whom performed their duties as requested, then I would say that you should definitely be welcome back to the same position as you were, because you have clearly demonstrated that you are only in this role to help adminstrate, and not because there is some shiny ADMIN WORLD or any other perk associated with the title. (i.e. we just reestablish the old reinstatement-process under Markbyron) |
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 2, 2020 0:31:48 GMT
I didn't say they were "the start of what's holding us back" considering that they are more recent problems as they weren't even in the list of possible changes that would ever be made to the server years ago, if anything they are indicators of the server moving away from the freedom and equality aspects that Mark founded on and I'd say that if we continued heading in that direction it would be the final nail in the coffin. What's already been holding us back is staring at us in the face in this very thread, it's just that we're going down a direction where we continue to implement changes that will continue to do damage rather than going in a progressive direction. and years ago in that same age if you had made a joke reinstatement and lied in it what would have been the consequences? Things change, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Our server still provides it's players with freedom to do whatever they want and if you fail to see that I don't know what to tell you. Adding a Donator title is not taking away freedom. Turning offlinemode while years ago it would have been taking away from players freedom, it's no longer as big of an issue now. We don't need to stick to Mark's 'quality aspects' in order to grow the server. A lot of the issues brought up have been an issue for as long as I remember which means that Mark's way of doing things isn't necessarily the answer to them. I find it interesting how you pick and choose the arguement of 'its how mark did it'. When we want to keep telnet and super admin separate, you find all the arguements you can against that, but if we want to change offlinemode, it's suddenly all about upholding the values mark founded the server upon. Does this server still provide its players with freedom to do whatever they want? Server instability makes the server an awful experience for players if they can't even make a WorldEdit or have a plot without there being world corruption. Players do not get an all-OP experience because we block any useful commands or building tools that they could have access to and instead coerce them to apply for admin or master builder to have access to building tools. What's the difference between an OP which doesn't have access to OP commands and a player on a regular creative server with access to player commands? We offer nothing anymore because the freedom experience has been wiped clean. Most things fundamentally interesting about this server have been taken away and I only see that getting worse and worse as cracked mode is taken off. Change is not a justification for removing the freedom experience. A donator rank does not take away freedom, I didn't say it did, a donator rank takes away equality, another important aspect of this server as it is all-OP. However, introducing unique perks and "shops" as has been suggested for donators and voters certainly takes away both freedom and equality. We do need to stick with Mark's quality aspects if we bear the name "Total Freedom". A community which does not stand for freedom or equality does not deserve the title that Mark founded it on. Nobody has criticized Mark for building a server upon the values of freedom and equality, that's what Mark has only received endless praise for, he was criticized for things that are not related to this thread at all. How do I know that? Because I was one of the most notorious people that argued with Mark endlessly back in the day. Ask around if you don't believe me. I have never used the argument "it's how Mark did it." I have cited Mark for what he has founded this server upon, and as I said, to abolish those aspects would mean that this server should not bear the name of what he founded. If you never agreed with that then why were you ever here to begin with if you don't agree with the values that this server advertises? Having a bloated admin system doesn't go with the freedom and equality values of this server, admins are a necessary evil (as any online moderators are) to keep the freedom experience operational. |
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 2, 2020 0:33:14 GMT
...I wasn't making a new suggestion, I was voicing my support for the original suggestion to close admin applications? Closing Admin applications is like putting a band-aid on a broken leg. The issue isn't that we have people applying for Admin - the issue is that people ALSO apply for Admin because there are certain benefits associated with the title. Remove the benefits, and you would have less people applying (or if they were to still apply, they would quickly resign). Being an Adminstrator is a voluntary duty that a player chooses to pick up because they want to improve upon the server. I see a lot of discussion regarding activity on the server, and that is all fine and dandy - however it makes little to no sense to center the discussion on activity itself. If you have an Admin that can only play once in a blue moon, but performs their duty and merely does this because they wish to help keep the server safe, then I think it is more than appropriate to keep them as an Admin. Activity is not a good indicator of willingness to help the server (to an extent of course). Correct, which is why I made this rejected suggestion: totalfreedom.boards.net/thread/64589/total-freedom-back-on-courseThe suggestion that is on file now is not as comprehensive as it should be, but it's more incremental in achieving what we want. |
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miwo
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Post by miwo on Jul 2, 2020 0:36:16 GMT
Total Freedom literally has less freedom than normal creative servers.
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97
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RIP Telnet
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Post by 97 on Jul 2, 2020 0:37:25 GMT
Total Freedom literally has less freedom than normal creative servers. Thanks for giving us the reminder even though it has been said 19 times this month. |
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miwo
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Post by miwo on Jul 2, 2020 0:39:09 GMT
Total Freedom literally has less freedom than normal creative servers. Thanks for giving us the reminder even though it has been said 19 times this month. And yet nothing gets done about this glaring issue that has been on-going for YEARS. |
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 2, 2020 0:40:52 GMT
Total Freedom literally has less freedom than normal creative servers. Thanks for giving us the reminder even though it has been said 19 times this month. You're an administrator of the fucking server, be representative of the community and be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. Holy crap, I'm starting to think we need to restart the entire admin team because nobody is displaying any proactivity in improving the server. |
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97
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RIP Telnet
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Post by 97 on Jul 2, 2020 0:47:27 GMT
instead of part of the problem. I must ask why I am a part of the problem. |
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elmon
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Post by elmon on Jul 2, 2020 0:50:28 GMT
Players do not get an all-OP experience because we block any useful commands or building tools that they could have access to and instead coerce them to apply for admin or master builder to have access to building tools. What's the difference between an OP which doesn't have access to OP commands and a player on a regular creative server with access to player commands? We offer nothing anymore because the freedom experience has been wiped clean. Most things fundamentally interesting about this server have been taken away and I only see that getting worse and worse as cracked mode is taken off. I think this issue is actually better now than it used to be, I remember back when I first joined being an admin always seemed like the goal in the server, not building or interacting with the community, and that's how it was for many of the people that joined around 2014-2016. I can't speak much for the time period in between that and now, because I was inactive, however I can definitely see an improvement in that mindset from an OP's POV. Certain active players like Feueristic interact with the community regularly and play very often, and see no reason to become an admin. I remember seeing one of the listings of TotalFreedom on a server list and one of the advertised things was our admin ranks? That is fundamentally the issue I see. Although, as I mentioned, it's gotten a lot better. introducing unique perks and "shops" as has been suggested for donators and voters certainly takes away both freedom and equality. I don't see how providing voters with a shop takes away equality? Everyone has access to /vote and it really isn't that hard to get enough coins for the items in the shop. And they're only like lightning rods or a fireball, nothing that's excessive. If you never agreed with that then why were you ever here to begin with if you don't agree with the values that this server advertises? Having a bloated admin system doesn't go with the freedom and equality values of this server, admins are a necessary evil (as any online moderators are) to keep the freedom experience operational. I didn't say I disagreed with those values, I said that the issues brought up were an issue even when mark was around so his way of doing things doesn't necessarily solve them. |
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miwo
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Post by miwo on Jul 2, 2020 0:52:50 GMT
Players do not get an all-OP experience because we block any useful commands or building tools that they could have access to and instead coerce them to apply for admin or master builder to have access to building tools. What's the difference between an OP which doesn't have access to OP commands and a player on a regular creative server with access to player commands? We offer nothing anymore because the freedom experience has been wiped clean. Most things fundamentally interesting about this server have been taken away and I only see that getting worse and worse as cracked mode is taken off. I think this issue is actually better now than it used to be, I remember back when I first joined being an admin always seemed like the goal in the server, not building or interacting with the community, and that's how it was for many of the people that joined around 2014-2016. I can't speak much for the time period in between that and now, because I was inactive, however I can definitely see an improvement in that mindset from an OP's POV. Certain active players like Feueristic interact with the community regularly and play very often, and see no reason to become an admin. I remember seeing one of the listings of TotalFreedom on a server list and one of the advertised things was our admin ranks? That is fundamentally the issue I see. Although, as I mentioned, it's gotten a lot better. introducing unique perks and "shops" as has been suggested for donators and voters certainly takes away both freedom and equality. I don't see how providing voters with a shop takes away equality? Everyone has access to /vote and it really isn't that hard to get enough coins for the items in the shop. And they're only like lightning rods or a fireball, nothing that's excessive. If you never agreed with that then why were you ever here to begin with if you don't agree with the values that this server advertises? Having a bloated admin system doesn't go with the freedom and equality values of this server, admins are a necessary evil (as any online moderators are) to keep the freedom experience operational. I didn't say I disagreed with those values, I said that the issues brought up were an issue even when mark was around so his way of doing things doesn't necessarily solve them. is not really a good example since he is an MB, not an OP. I would list lyicx, however he has just become an Admin. I agree with your overarching point though, that it has gotten some-what better, but it is nowhere near the point it needs to be. |
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 2, 2020 0:54:39 GMT
instead of part of the problem. I must ask why I am a part of the problem. Because as an administrator of the server you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. |
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 2, 2020 1:00:34 GMT
Players do not get an all-OP experience because we block any useful commands or building tools that they could have access to and instead coerce them to apply for admin or master builder to have access to building tools. What's the difference between an OP which doesn't have access to OP commands and a player on a regular creative server with access to player commands? We offer nothing anymore because the freedom experience has been wiped clean. Most things fundamentally interesting about this server have been taken away and I only see that getting worse and worse as cracked mode is taken off. I think this issue is actually better now than it used to be, I remember back when I first joined being an admin always seemed like the goal in the server, not building or interacting with the community, and that's how it was for many of the people that joined around 2014-2016. I can't speak much for the time period in between that and now, because I was inactive, however I can definitely see an improvement in that mindset from an OP's POV. Certain active players like Feueristic interact with the community regularly and play very often, and see no reason to become an admin. I remember seeing one of the listings of TotalFreedom on a server list and one of the advertised things was our admin ranks? That is fundamentally the issue I see. Although, as I mentioned, it's gotten a lot better. Is the admin system as a whole incrementally better than it was a few years ago? Perhaps, I think that the point about there still being some active players that don't see a reason to be an admin is something that has never not been the case, but a few years ago it was a lot more common to see admins verbally abuse players even on the forums. introducing unique perks and "shops" as has been suggested for donators and voters certainly takes away both freedom and equality. I don't see how providing voters with a shop takes away equality? Everyone has access to /vote and it really isn't that hard to get enough coins for the items in the shop. And they're only like lightning rods or a fireball, nothing that's excessive. By itself, not much, but it did open the door to a donator rank getting its own perks which is a much more severe taking away of equality/freedom. If you never agreed with that then why were you ever here to begin with if you don't agree with the values that this server advertises? Having a bloated admin system doesn't go with the freedom and equality values of this server, admins are a necessary evil (as any online moderators are) to keep the freedom experience operational. I didn't say I disagreed with those values, I said that the issues brought up were an issue even when mark was around so his way of doing things doesn't necessarily solve them. When it comes to freedom and equality, not really, I really do not recall anybody criticizing Mark for pioneering the all-OP format. What Mark would get frequently criticized for would either be related to the admin system (how times change), his own handling of disputes and "drama," and other crap which isn't as relevant today. |
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fionn
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elmon sucks
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Post by fionn on Jul 2, 2020 1:01:42 GMT
Total Freedom literally has less freedom than normal creative servers. ^ This is honestly something we should be working against. Off the top of my head, this is more-less a literal creative server but with the option of going into survival. We don't really offer anything exclusive because of the amount of freedom servers now... If we were to increase our player base this would is something we need to actively work on. What's stopping a player from going onto a creative server with more players? We've always branded ourselves as a "Free-OP" server and honestly I always found that to be quite misleading. |
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97
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RIP Telnet
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Post by 97 on Jul 2, 2020 1:03:19 GMT
Because as an administrator of the server you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. OK I agree with that. However I have offered help for this server since I was an OP.
I just realized I haven't given my opinion on the thread itself. Honestly it has been concerning that the server tab list is composed of just admins. And players who join normally don't come back (Looking at the Server Analysis this is mostly true). I just think that 1 we need to cut down on admin applications, and 2 try to get the Server Liaisons communicating. Because there has been many hiccups happening with this extremely vital group. |
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