shrimp
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Post by shrimp on Aug 10, 2020 14:03:13 GMT
i just want to say that to any telnet admin that isn't supporting this idea because "i don't want to all of the sudden have the same permissions and status as a super admin who has done half of the work on this server i have," then you are obviously more focused on personal gain and power than the actual wellbeing of the server and i would read the suggestion again and think harder no one is saying that lmao i am not going to name names but i know a lot of people who think that way
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burger
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Post by burger on Aug 10, 2020 14:24:25 GMT
Object I can definitely see the sense in removing Telnet Admin because Super Admins could be trusted with all Telnet addons. However, I really don't think a jump from Super Admin to Senior Admin is a very good trust based system. A new Super Admin could essentially get Senior Admin in less than 5 or so months which is quick and easy if you want extra commands and addons Senior Admins get. Super Admins are also more likely to be unexperienced and should not be combined with more experienced Telnet Admins. However, I wish for a name change for all 3 ranks. The current Super, Telnet, and Senior Admin system is complicated and should be changed to more popular names like Moderator and Administrator. Maybe we could up the time you would have to retain the rank "moderator" to allow for more experience? Currently, to apply for telnet, a super would have to be active for a period of 4 months. A jump up from that would require activity for 10 months. Would you be more onboard with merging Super status and telnet status if we made the required amount of activity 1 year or more?
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tozzit
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Post by tozzit on Aug 10, 2020 14:51:19 GMT
This thread was approved after 3 hours. I cant for the life of me understand how such a big change can get approved when alot of people werent even awake for this.
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grntbg
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Post by grntbg on Aug 10, 2020 14:55:50 GMT
I personally like the idea of reorganizing the ranks, but at the same time I feel like a jump from Super Admin to Senior Admin is pretty big. Even though they're being renamed, it's still the same permissions. I don't know, I just feel like a stepping stone in between Super and Senior Admin was a good thing. Reinforcing a fundamentally broken hierarchy by adding more ranks (for no good reason other than to act as a buffer position) is symptomatic of there being a larger problem here. If we can't trust our super applicants to possibly apply for senior and be accepted, we need to hold our administrators to higher expectations and realize that newcomers will eventually grow into seniority. It breaks the hierarchy that has been in place for years on end (Unless someone is ready to improve it) and it makes the mission to obtain senior that much more easy, and it really shouldn't be easy at all. Some people have waited for years and earned their senior position or even telnet in some cases and making telnet disappear will just make this whole system fall apart and current senior that worked their ass off for their position won't be happy when someone speed through the 1 only rank and then straight to senior, it just demoralizes everyone who worked so hard to get to where they are in this community. The position of telnet wasn't original to this server and it was added when the telnet protocol became an important administration tool for this platform. Things have changed; the telnet protocol isn't very useful anymore other than acting as a text-based client for desktops, and with the popularity of chat-based administration apps for mobile phones, there's little use case for having a dedicated rank which grants a feature anybody with a phone can replicate. People will be upset about either being merged into one single rank or having their rank feel less important, but this should only remind us that admin positions are not some type of exclusivity club and exist to modularize tasks. Seniors are (supposed to be) chosen based on experience and maturity. If applicants for the position are held to that same standard, there won't be any decrease in the quality of our seniors.
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grntbg
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Post by grntbg on Aug 10, 2020 14:56:46 GMT
Object I can definitely see the sense in removing Telnet Admin because Super Admins could be trusted with all Telnet addons. However, I really don't think a jump from Super Admin to Senior Admin is a very good trust based system. A new Super Admin could essentially get Senior Admin in less than 5 or so months which is quick and easy if you want extra commands and addons Senior Admins get. Super Admins are also more likely to be unexperienced and should not be combined with more experienced Telnet Admins. However, I wish for a name change for all 3 ranks. The current Super, Telnet, and Senior Admin system is complicated and should be changed to more popular names like Moderator and Administrator. Maybe we could up the time you would have to retain the rank "moderator" to allow for more experience? Currently, to apply for telnet, a super would have to be active for a period of 4 months. A jump up from that would require activity for 10 months. Would you be more onboard with merging Super status and telnet status if we made the required amount of activity 1 year or more? This is what my suggestion entails.
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grntbg
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Post by grntbg on Aug 10, 2020 14:59:20 GMT
I can definitely see the sense in removing Telnet Admin because Super Admins could be trusted with all Telnet addons. However, I really don't think a jump from Super Admin to Senior Admin is a very good trust based system. A new Super Admin could essentially get Senior Admin in less than 5 or so months which is quick and easy if you want extra commands and addons Senior Admins get. Super Admins are also more likely to be unexperienced and should not be combined with more experienced Telnet Admins. I don't mean to be rude, but I don't honestly believe that telnets are more experienced than supers. It doesn't take very long to achieve the position of telnet these days and from the recent applications I've seen, there has been little consideration as to if they are "trustworthy" or not, which makes sense because the super and telnet positions are nearly identical with the exception of the dated telnet client. It's a position obtained by meeting requirements. If you can't trust one of our supers with "telnet addons" then logically there'd be no reason to trust them with administrator commands. If that's the case, they shouldn't be an admin.
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StevenNL2000
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Post by StevenNL2000 on Aug 10, 2020 16:11:56 GMT
What I'm missing in this thread is how you are going to make sure that removing yet another stepping stone to Senior isn't going to make the rank even easier to obtain. Increasing the time requirement is nice, but doesn't actually do anything if you are pretty much guaranteed to be approved when you meet it, and that is something people have already been complaining about with the current system. This is not an issue with the system as much as it is an issue with the voters.
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Darth
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Post by Darth on Aug 10, 2020 16:18:33 GMT
This thread should be publicly viewable. A change like this and the discussion regarding it isn't something that should stay in the admin section of the forum.
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grntbg
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Post by grntbg on Aug 10, 2020 16:19:08 GMT
What I'm missing in this thread is how you are going to make sure that removing yet another stepping stone to Senior isn't going to make the rank even easier to obtain. Increasing the time requirement is nice, but doesn't actually do anything if you are pretty much guaranteed to be approved when you meet it, and that is something people have already been complaining about with the current system. This is not an issue with the system as much as it is an issue with the voters. I think it'd be helpful to reissue guidelines for voting on senior applications which stress reviewing the applicant's social skills and ability to handle situations that require foresight. It's one thing to meet the requirements but senior applicants should exceed the standards handed to them. Mark used to select applicants in "rounds" which not only ensures that an applicant meets the requirements, but that they're the pick of the litter.
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Post by DragonSlayer2189 on Aug 10, 2020 21:17:51 GMT
ok i'm going to rant a little here:
Disclaimer: Keep in mind that the following is mostly my thoughts on the matter, do not take what I say as an absolute fact, as I only know what I have learned from experience and from what is available for me to view. Also, while I will be trying to eliminate any and all bias from this rant, keep in mind that, as a telnet admin, I will have some bias.
My main gripe with all this stuff about removing the middle rank in our current system is what do we do with the people in that position and what do we do with its permissions. in this thread the author has noted that they think that all the current telnets, and also any telnet permissions should be migrated to this mod rank, which would be the first rank in the system. however, i do not agree with this line of reasoning.
let's start with the actual telnet admins themselves. Now, while I can't speak for everyone, I don't think all of our telnets would agree to being moved down to a lower rank, you see, we have some telnets who have been in their current position for multiple years, and I believe that it would be unfair to bring someone who has been working with the server for so long, back to the beginner rank.
Now, this could, in theory be solved by doing something like this: find a middle point of how long a telnet has been in that rank. for anyone over this point, they would be moved to "Admin" or basicly senior, and anyone below this would be migrated to "Mod". While this might solve this issue, it would be hard to find a justifiable middle point, as if you just used the average, the outliers would probably offset the point enough to either be much too high, or much too low.
Next, let's talk about the permissions. Don't get me wrong, I am perfectly fine with supers (aka mods) having some of the commands a telnet admin has, however there are a few that I don't think would work. You see, I have heard the argument that we should be trusting a super admin just as much as any other admin, otherwise why would they be admin, a number of times, however, I do not agree with it. True, while super admins are generally trusted, we don't give some commands to them because super admins are inexperienced, which makes them prone to sometimes messing up. The problem with this is that, we don't want someone who may mess up, having access to things like /plc (plugin control), or /saconfig (allows admins to add/remove other admins). the point of super admin as of now, is a rank to help admins become more experienced with the tools they have before giving them access to greater tools.
While we could give these permisions to the higher rank, there would still be a problem. a lot of these higher-level tools are very important to helping maintain the server, which is why we give them to telnet admins, however if they were given to this higher rank, it would then become much harder for someone to acquire access to these tools due to a larger divide in ranks.
With a 3 rank system, you have the flexibility to restrict access to these commands while still not making it a long hard process to get access to these tools, allowing for a new admin to work hard with the tools that they have, then apply, and rank up to gain access to new tools to allow you to do different tasks that are necessary for the server, which they then after learning, effectively using, and putting all of their tools to use for a while they are able to apply for the last rank, which then allows them to have access to much more, and be able to do even more stuff to help the server.
I think that's all I have to say about this, and I hope I was able to get my point across, I don't think eliminating a rank from the server is something that we should be doing. While i'm fine with renaming some ranks, I think that we should be keeping our 3 rank system, as I just don't think that a 2 rank system would work as well. Feel free to criticize me as much as you want, but this is my opinion, and I will stand by it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 21:24:04 GMT
and higher-ups now have a panel account. We Seniors may have access to AMP, but we can't use the console because @creeperseth decided we don't need it since we have telnet. Now we're losing telnet? Our ONLY EFFECTIVE WAY of looking at the console, which trying to read is the equivalent of trying to read Matrix Rain if you're on AMP
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anthony
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Post by anthony on Aug 10, 2020 21:25:51 GMT
what does this mean for me?
i wanna hopefully one day become admin but does this change the way i apply?
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AshazTGA
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Post by AshazTGA on Aug 10, 2020 21:29:43 GMT
Has this been moved from somewhere? No votes by ops so far.
Vouch anyway, it's already happening.
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AshazTGA
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Post by AshazTGA on Aug 10, 2020 21:30:04 GMT
what does this mean for me? i wanna hopefully one day become admin but does this change the way i apply? It doesn't really change anything.
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grntbg
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Post by grntbg on Aug 10, 2020 21:31:02 GMT
and higher-ups now have a panel account. We Seniors may have access to AMP, but we can't use the console because @creeperseth decided we don't need it since we have telnet. Now we're losing telnet? Our ONLY EFFECTIVE WAY of looking at the console, which trying to read is the equivalent of trying to read Matrix Rain if you're on AMP Losing telnet? This suggestion has nothing to do with the telnet protocol. When the word "telnet" is used in this suggestion, it's referring to the rank of "super telnet admin" now known as "telnet admin."
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