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Post by wild1145 on Oct 27, 2020 16:23:26 GMT
I think we should stay on ProBoards (and should have the entire time) - The first obvious reason is that history repeated itself. When Windows went inactive and we lost the server, the forums united us all during that period. Here we lost the server and lost all forum data. The same thing would have happened with Windows - There were two data corruptions in the short two month period we ran the forum. We had deadlocks and bugs of posts being deleted. We never EVER in the eight years of using ProBoards have EVER had any data get corrupted - Competent system administrators - Seth was using Ubuntu 19.10... come on, I don't even have to touch on this. Internally the server was a mess - Timeless - I grew up with ProBoards when I used it all the way back in 2013. It's worked and functioned exactly the same for seven years. The software that ProBoards makes is rock solid and has lasted this long trouble free. Of course the default themes aren't great, but you can slap on Material Dark or Metro Stripe for a fairly modern forum experience. - Proper audit logs - Legally everything is pretty much already done for us - Compatibility and low data - The forums are my go to when testing compatibility in browsers or want to browse something on the internet when I have low service. I can load the mobile forums on 1 bar of 3G. - Compatibility with upgrades - You saw the hell I had to go through to make a spreadsheet of all the extensions we had to wait for to be updated for beta 14 - ProBoards v6 is coming eventually and looks extremely nice and modern, frontend and backend There were about a million reasons never to switch to MyBB. I'm sorry for boycotting MyBB in favor of Flarum. We should have boycotted MyBB back to ProBoards. No other forum software that is self hosted could possibly run for 8 years and hold nearly 70,000 threads and store almost 25,000 users without having some major issue or some breach along the way. That's not even to mention that ProBoards has phenomenal support compared to Flarum's (I'm not saying it's bad but it's not necessarily great) Unfortunately that's not a decision for me to make in this capacity. My understanding is we are trying to get things back to how they were when Seth left, if the new owner whomever they may be wants to move to Proboards or to something else, then that's a call for them. There are strong community views on this, and I have my own strong views on the matter, but I disagree that we should be moving back now just because there isn't an owner... I don't think anyone currently in their existing position has the power to make that call...
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ashaz
Junior Member
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Post by ashaz on Oct 27, 2020 16:53:38 GMT
I think we should stay on ProBoards (and should have the entire time) - The first obvious reason is that history repeated itself. When Windows went inactive and we lost the server, the forums united us all during that period. Here we lost the server and lost all forum data. The same thing would have happened with Windows - There were two data corruptions in the short two month period we ran the forum. We had deadlocks and bugs of posts being deleted. We never EVER in the eight years of using ProBoards have EVER had any data get corrupted - Competent system administrators - Seth was using Ubuntu 19.10... come on, I don't even have to touch on this. Internally the server was a mess - Timeless - I grew up with ProBoards when I used it all the way back in 2013. It's worked and functioned exactly the same for seven years. The software that ProBoards makes is rock solid and has lasted this long trouble free. Of course the default themes aren't great, but you can slap on Material Dark or Metro Stripe for a fairly modern forum experience. - Proper audit logs - Legally everything is pretty much already done for us - Compatibility and low data - The forums are my go to when testing compatibility in browsers or want to browse something on the internet when I have low service. I can load the mobile forums on 1 bar of 3G. - Compatibility with upgrades - You saw the hell I had to go through to make a spreadsheet of all the extensions we had to wait for to be updated for beta 14 - ProBoards v6 is coming eventually and looks extremely nice and modern, frontend and backend There were about a million reasons never to switch to MyBB. I'm sorry for boycotting MyBB in favor of Flarum. We should have boycotted MyBB back to ProBoards. No other forum software that is self hosted could possibly run for 8 years and hold nearly 70,000 threads and store almost 25,000 users without having some major issue or some breach along the way. That's not even to mention that ProBoards has phenomenal support compared to Flarum's (I'm not saying it's bad but it's not necessarily great) Unfortunately that's not a decision for me to make in this capacity. My understanding is we are trying to get things back to how they were when Seth left, if the new owner whomever they may be wants to move to Proboards or to something else, then that's a call for them. There are strong community views on this, and I have my own strong views on the matter, but I disagree that we should be moving back now just because there isn't an owner... I don't think anyone currently in their existing position has the power to make that call... This is all we have and I personally think there’s no point moving. Like Telesphoreo says, if we encounter this situation again, we won’t have issues with proboards as it’s a third party manager (Finest) who isn’t part of the admin team at all.
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Post by wild1145 on Oct 27, 2020 17:26:48 GMT
Unfortunately that's not a decision for me to make in this capacity. My understanding is we are trying to get things back to how they were when Seth left, if the new owner whomever they may be wants to move to Proboards or to something else, then that's a call for them. There are strong community views on this, and I have my own strong views on the matter, but I disagree that we should be moving back now just because there isn't an owner... I don't think anyone currently in their existing position has the power to make that call... This is all we have and I personally think there’s no point moving. Like Telesphoreo says, if we encounter this situation again, we won’t have issues with proboards as it’s a third party manager (Finest) who isn’t part of the admin team at all. You clearly didn't read my post. We have NO authority to move the forums from Flarum... It's not hard to get them stood up and was something I'd planned to do last night anyway. If we're going to start changing things without an owner, then it's turning into the wild west because there are plenty of things I think should be changed, so why shouldn't I change them? There's no owner to stop me and it's on my server, so that's fair right? It's a slippery slope and undermines the decisions made by the previous owners and the future owners of the server. We should restore what we had before Seth went AWOL or as close to that, and that's what I've said I will support, anything different to that mandate I feel is unacceptable and not something I could personally support until we have an owner in place. This isn't the first time I've been in this position of trying to facilitate a new owner coming in, and we are going to fuck ourselves over if we start making decisions without the authority to do so.
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Xen
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Post by Xen on Oct 27, 2020 17:48:10 GMT
This is all we have and I personally think there’s no point moving. Like Telesphoreo says, if we encounter this situation again, we won’t have issues with proboards as it’s a third party manager (Finest) who isn’t part of the admin team at all. You clearly didn't read my post. We have NO authority to move the forums from Flarum... It's not hard to get them stood up and was something I'd planned to do last night anyway. If we're going to start changing things without an owner, then it's turning into the wild west because there are plenty of things I think should be changed, so why shouldn't I change them? There's no owner to stop me and it's on my server, so that's fair right? It's a slippery slope and undermines the decisions made by the previous owners and the future owners of the server. We should restore what we had before Seth went AWOL or as close to that, and that's what I've said I will support, anything different to that mandate I feel is unacceptable and not something I could personally support until we have an owner in place. This isn't the first time I've been in this position of trying to facilitate a new owner coming in, and we are going to fuck ourselves over if we start making decisions without the authority to do so. These decisions aren't just coming from no where. It is literally what the majority of the community wants, owner or no owner. prnt.sc/v83niv
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Post by wild1145 on Oct 27, 2020 17:59:54 GMT
You clearly didn't read my post. We have NO authority to move the forums from Flarum... It's not hard to get them stood up and was something I'd planned to do last night anyway. If we're going to start changing things without an owner, then it's turning into the wild west because there are plenty of things I think should be changed, so why shouldn't I change them? There's no owner to stop me and it's on my server, so that's fair right? It's a slippery slope and undermines the decisions made by the previous owners and the future owners of the server. We should restore what we had before Seth went AWOL or as close to that, and that's what I've said I will support, anything different to that mandate I feel is unacceptable and not something I could personally support until we have an owner in place. This isn't the first time I've been in this position of trying to facilitate a new owner coming in, and we are going to fuck ourselves over if we start making decisions without the authority to do so. These decisions aren't just coming from no where. It is literally what the majority of the community wants, owner or no owner. prnt.sc/v83nivThe community doesn't make the decision... The owner does... The owner can choose to take council from the community, but the community has no actual say in how things are ran... The community doesn't hold the authority to change from Flarum to Proboards, nor does anyone else here. When we get an owner, if that's what they want to do then they can do so...
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Xen
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Discord: XenVoltz#5879
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Post by Xen on Oct 27, 2020 18:06:57 GMT
These decisions aren't just coming from no where. It is literally what the majority of the community wants, owner or no owner. prnt.sc/v83nivThe community doesn't make the decision... The owner does... The owner can choose to take council from the community, but the community has no actual say in how things are ran... The community doesn't hold the authority to change from Flarum to Proboards, nor does anyone else here. When we get an owner, if that's what they want to do then they can do so... Well we do not have an "owner" to make that decision right now. There is no policy to decide who gets to make that decision nor is there a policy requiring us to go back to he original forums.
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Post by wild1145 on Oct 27, 2020 18:10:08 GMT
The community doesn't make the decision... The owner does... The owner can choose to take council from the community, but the community has no actual say in how things are ran... The community doesn't hold the authority to change from Flarum to Proboards, nor does anyone else here. When we get an owner, if that's what they want to do then they can do so... Well we do not have an "owner" to make that decision right now. There is no policy to decide who gets to make that decision nor is there a policy requiring us to go back to he original forums. If there is no owner to make the decision, why would we change from what was previously established? I can't see any policy that grants me, the community, the executives or anyone else the power to change the forums because they feel like it... It's the decision for whoever is the owner, and in their absence I think it's reasonable to assume we should be maintaining the status quo and nothing more. Every decision we make now, risks undermining the previous owner(s) decisions, and even the next owners decisions. It's not acceptable to assume anyone here has the right to make these changes that have been proposed.
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Xen
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Discord: XenVoltz#5879
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Post by Xen on Oct 27, 2020 18:29:02 GMT
Well we do not have an "owner" to make that decision right now. There is no policy to decide who gets to make that decision nor is there a policy requiring us to go back to he original forums. If there is no owner to make the decision, why would we change from what was previously established? I can't see any policy that grants me, the community, the executives or anyone else the power to change the forums because they feel like it... It's the decision for whoever is the owner, and in their absence I think it's reasonable to assume we should be maintaining the status quo and nothing more. Every decision we make now, risks undermining the previous owner(s) decisions, and even the next owners decisions. It's not acceptable to assume anyone here has the right to make these changes that have been proposed. Going back to Flarum instead of Proboards will make no difference. Either way, we do not have the information and data we previously had. The majority of the community does not feel happy with a forum hosted on someone's server (maybe if it were you or Steven hosting, then that might change). The ownership policy will initiate on the Proboards forum and from there, the owner can decide if we stay on Proboards or move to another forum software.
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Post by wild1145 on Oct 27, 2020 18:39:40 GMT
If there is no owner to make the decision, why would we change from what was previously established? I can't see any policy that grants me, the community, the executives or anyone else the power to change the forums because they feel like it... It's the decision for whoever is the owner, and in their absence I think it's reasonable to assume we should be maintaining the status quo and nothing more. Every decision we make now, risks undermining the previous owner(s) decisions, and even the next owners decisions. It's not acceptable to assume anyone here has the right to make these changes that have been proposed. Going back to Flarum instead of Proboards will make no difference. Either way, we do not have the information and data we previously had. The majority of the community does not feel happy with a forum hosted on someone's server (maybe if it were you or Steven hosting, then that might change). The ownership policy will initiate on the Proboards forum and from there, the owner can decide if we stay on Proboards or move to another forum software. It makes a massive difference... 1) We were on Flarum before, and while I agree it's not a great piece of software, we don't have anyone currently on the server with the power to change that imo. 2) If we move to proboards, it makes it impossible to move without loosing all the data... At least if we're on Flarum the owner can move anywhere and it's not an issue... Different self-hosted forums? Great, Proboards, that's fine too. For the immediate future I've assumed I'd host the Flarum forums while we sort the new owner out. The ownership policy absolutely must not in my opinion be initiated here, else we would loose all history if the next owner moves off this forums, we need to get somewhere that we had setup before, and that gives us flexibility going forward. We've not used Proboards for months, and while we're going to have missing history unfortunately anyway, the smaller that gap the better is my view. We don't have the power to move from Flarum to proboards, and should not do so. I don't understand why people feel they have the authority to dictate this change despite having no power or policy to back this up.
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Post by redeastwood on Oct 27, 2020 18:58:08 GMT
Going back to Flarum instead of Proboards will make no difference. Either way, we do not have the information and data we previously had. The majority of the community does not feel happy with a forum hosted on someone's server (maybe if it were you or Steven hosting, then that might change). The ownership policy will initiate on the Proboards forum and from there, the owner can decide if we stay on Proboards or move to another forum software. It makes a massive difference... 1) We were on Flarum before, and while I agree it's not a great piece of software, we don't have anyone currently on the server with the power to change that imo. 2) If we move to proboards, it makes it impossible to move without loosing all the data... At least if we're on Flarum the owner can move anywhere and it's not an issue... Different self-hosted forums? Great, Proboards, that's fine too. For the immediate future I've assumed I'd host the Flarum forums while we sort the new owner out. The ownership policy absolutely must not in my opinion be initiated here, else we would loose all history if the next owner moves off this forums, we need to get somewhere that we had setup before, and that gives us flexibility going forward. We've not used Proboards for months, and while we're going to have missing history unfortunately anyway, the smaller that gap the better is my view. We don't have the power to move from Flarum to proboards, and should not do so. I don't understand why people feel they have the authority to dictate this change despite having no power or policy to back this up. I feel like people miss the nostalgia of when Total Freedom actually had legs to stand on, and those days were distinguished within this Proboards forum. I also don't think that many people understand the technical side as you do, may I ask what data will be lost if we move from Flarum to Proboards? I, and I'm sure everyone here, really appreciate the work you're putting into restoring this server.
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Xen
Junior Member
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IGN: XenVoltz
Discord: XenVoltz#5879
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Post by Xen on Oct 27, 2020 18:59:17 GMT
1) We were on Flarum before, and while I agree it's not a great piece of software, we don't have anyone currently on the server with the power to change that imo. The executive team is pretty much in charge right. There is no policy for or against their decision making. If the community agrees with it, then it should be fine. Regardless of who is owner, if any, the community is what should be listened to. It is already known that the majority of the community wants to stay on Proboards, so it'd be a massive waste of time to follow through with the ownership policy on Flarum, then afterwards, move to Proboards. None of that data can be transferred over to Proboards. 2) If we move to proboards, it makes it impossible to move without loosing all the data... At least if we're on Flarum the owner can move anywhere and it's not an issue... Different self-hosted forums? Great, Proboards, that's fine too. We won't be losing any data. It will still be accessible on this forum. There is no plan on deleting this forum if we move over to another software. For the immediate future I've assumed I'd host the Flarum forums while we sort the new owner out. Realistically, majority of the people won't go over to the forums unless someone like you is hosting it.
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Post by wild1145 on Oct 27, 2020 19:00:03 GMT
It makes a massive difference... 1) We were on Flarum before, and while I agree it's not a great piece of software, we don't have anyone currently on the server with the power to change that imo. 2) If we move to proboards, it makes it impossible to move without loosing all the data... At least if we're on Flarum the owner can move anywhere and it's not an issue... Different self-hosted forums? Great, Proboards, that's fine too. For the immediate future I've assumed I'd host the Flarum forums while we sort the new owner out. The ownership policy absolutely must not in my opinion be initiated here, else we would loose all history if the next owner moves off this forums, we need to get somewhere that we had setup before, and that gives us flexibility going forward. We've not used Proboards for months, and while we're going to have missing history unfortunately anyway, the smaller that gap the better is my view. We don't have the power to move from Flarum to proboards, and should not do so. I don't understand why people feel they have the authority to dictate this change despite having no power or policy to back this up. I feel like people miss the nostalgia of when Total Freedom actually had legs to stand on, and those days were distinguished within this Proboards forum. I also don't think that many people understand the technical side as you do, may I ask what data will be lost if we move from Flarum to Proboards? I, and I'm sure everyone here, really appreciates the work you're putting into restoring this server. So that's what I'm saying. If the next owner wanted to move from Flarum back to Proboards, they can, however Proboards don't allow you you to transfer data FROM proboards. Meaning if we adopt Proboards for this, it'd be locked here again which isn't great. Given we were on Flarum before, we REALLY should be on it now rather than Proboards, that's my view anyway regardless of if it's the long term option or if it's a good one...
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Post by wild1145 on Oct 27, 2020 19:40:38 GMT
1) We were on Flarum before, and while I agree it's not a great piece of software, we don't have anyone currently on the server with the power to change that imo. The executive team is pretty much in charge right. There is no policy for or against their decision making. If the community agrees with it, then it should be fine. Regardless of who is owner, if any, the community is what should be listened to. It is already known that the majority of the community wants to stay on Proboards, so it'd be a massive waste of time to follow through with the ownership policy on Flarum, then afterwards, move to Proboards. None of that data can be transferred over to Proboards. 2) If we move to proboards, it makes it impossible to move without loosing all the data... At least if we're on Flarum the owner can move anywhere and it's not an issue... Different self-hosted forums? Great, Proboards, that's fine too. We won't be losing any data. It will still be accessible on this forum. There is no plan on deleting this forum if we move over to another software. For the immediate future I've assumed I'd host the Flarum forums while we sort the new owner out. Realistically, majority of the people won't go over to the forums unless someone like you is hosting it. Sorry missed your post. The executive team as per the ownership policy are here to maintain the server and keep the lights on, nothing more... They can't make the call on the forums because it's not within any of their power. The community also have no decision making power. It's at least possible to move data from Flarum or others to Proboards, it's not possible to do it the other way around. We were on Flarum, and if people don't want to use it they should make a suggestion to the new owner when we get them. We will be loosing all data, it's as simple as that, the same as we did before. And that's fine, but we shouldn't be taking a step backwards just because people are scared... Sometimes you need to bite the bullet and go with it. I am not a fan of Flarum as a technology, but it actually gives the next owner a lot of flexibility in how things work, it's a lot easier to transition a forum from Flarum --> Something else than it is Probaords --> something else as we discovered. If we moved from Flarum to something else we shouldn't loose the history on Flarum, but we would if we're on proboards. Either way, Proboards was no longer our official forums when Seth was in power, and we should respect that decision and it's really as simple as that. If you want to move back to proboards that's on the new owner when they come in.
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Post by Telesphoreo on Oct 27, 2020 19:45:35 GMT
I think we should stay on ProBoards (and should have the entire time) - The first obvious reason is that history repeated itself. When Windows went inactive and we lost the server, the forums united us all during that period. Here we lost the server and lost all forum data. The same thing would have happened with Windows - There were two data corruptions in the short two month period we ran the forum. We had deadlocks and bugs of posts being deleted. We never EVER in the eight years of using ProBoards have EVER had any data get corrupted - Competent system administrators - Seth was using Ubuntu 19.10... come on, I don't even have to touch on this. Internally the server was a mess - Timeless - I grew up with ProBoards when I used it all the way back in 2013. It's worked and functioned exactly the same for seven years. The software that ProBoards makes is rock solid and has lasted this long trouble free. Of course the default themes aren't great, but you can slap on Material Dark or Metro Stripe for a fairly modern forum experience. - Proper audit logs - Legally everything is pretty much already done for us - Compatibility and low data - The forums are my go to when testing compatibility in browsers or want to browse something on the internet when I have low service. I can load the mobile forums on 1 bar of 3G. - Compatibility with upgrades - You saw the hell I had to go through to make a spreadsheet of all the extensions we had to wait for to be updated for beta 14 - ProBoards v6 is coming eventually and looks extremely nice and modern, frontend and backend There were about a million reasons never to switch to MyBB. I'm sorry for boycotting MyBB in favor of Flarum. We should have boycotted MyBB back to ProBoards. No other forum software that is self hosted could possibly run for 8 years and hold nearly 70,000 threads and store almost 25,000 users without having some major issue or some breach along the way. That's not even to mention that ProBoards has phenomenal support compared to Flarum's (I'm not saying it's bad but it's not necessarily great) Unfortunately that's not a decision for me to make in this capacity. My understanding is we are trying to get things back to how they were when Seth left, if the new owner whomever they may be wants to move to Proboards or to something else, then that's a call for them. There are strong community views on this, and I have my own strong views on the matter, but I disagree that we should be moving back now just because there isn't an owner... I don't think anyone currently in their existing position has the power to make that call... I am voicing my opinion on the matter for when we do have a new owner. I'm not commanding anyone to do anything, nor telling someone specific to stay on ProBoards or switch to something else. Of course no one can make that call yet, this is my view for when the new owner does make the call.
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Post by wild1145 on Oct 27, 2020 19:47:33 GMT
Unfortunately that's not a decision for me to make in this capacity. My understanding is we are trying to get things back to how they were when Seth left, if the new owner whomever they may be wants to move to Proboards or to something else, then that's a call for them. There are strong community views on this, and I have my own strong views on the matter, but I disagree that we should be moving back now just because there isn't an owner... I don't think anyone currently in their existing position has the power to make that call... I am voicing my opinion on the matter for when we do have a new owner. I'm not commanding anyone to do anything, nor telling someone specific to stay on ProBoards or switch to something else. Of course no one can make that call yet, this is my view for when the new owner does make the call. Apologies, clearly mis-underood your point. A lot of people seem to want to make the change now which is what I'm currently trying to argue against. Certainly not against binning Flarum in the future, so far my experience of it as a sys admin is that it's poorly built shite, but I'd rather us use something we had stood up before then ignore what we already had in place
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