elmon
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Post by elmon on Jul 18, 2020 15:54:17 GMT
Ex admins are held to a higher standard, which wilee is. He's just that... An Ex admin, which currently makes him just a player, no different to myself. I've had this argument a number of times before, Wilee has no rank on this server, and should be held to the same level as every other player, unless you're going to force people to hold an admin rank or leave entirely... Again, It's one thing to suspend / remove a rank because it looks bad, but you should NOT be banning people for what they choose to do in their own time away from this server. When did anyone say hold an admin rank or leave entirely? All I said was he is an ex admin and according to the conduct policy at the time of his ban he is held to a higher standard as he is an ex admin. And if what they do in their own time affects TotalFreedom then of course action is justifiable |
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 15:57:54 GMT
He's just that... An Ex admin, which currently makes him just a player, no different to myself. I've had this argument a number of times before, Wilee has no rank on this server, and should be held to the same level as every other player, unless you're going to force people to hold an admin rank or leave entirely... Again, It's one thing to suspend / remove a rank because it looks bad, but you should NOT be banning people for what they choose to do in their own time away from this server. When did anyone say hold an admin rank or leave entirely? All I said was he is an ex admin and according to the conduct policy at the time of his ban he is held to a higher standard as he is an ex admin. And if what they do in their own time affects TotalFreedom then of course action is justifiable That's absolute bullshit... You're enforcing a rule that is contradicted elsewhere. You're enforcing a rule for an offence that wasn't committed on TotalFreedom or any of it's official or even affiliated platform. You're justifying this that a former admin who hasn't been admin for a number of years should be perm banned for such an offence when the entire point of holding admins and ex-admins accountable was due to repetitional damage where no such damage has been proven in this case. You're justifying this based on someone else who is perm banned and therefore literally not part of this community because they've been banned from it. I'm really struggling to see why you and others are okay with this level of absolute bullshit when there has been no precedent set for this sort of action, and the entire process seems to be a way to try to silence someone who has spoken out against decisions made here. And before I get the "But IA are impartial" they're just not, they are no more or less impartial than I or anyone else in this community. They're just another group of people who get to act as judge jury and executioner at the moment. |
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elmon
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fionn sucks
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Post by elmon on Jul 18, 2020 16:12:34 GMT
When did anyone say hold an admin rank or leave entirely? All I said was he is an ex admin and according to the conduct policy at the time of his ban he is held to a higher standard as he is an ex admin. And if what they do in their own time affects TotalFreedom then of course action is justifiable That's absolute bullshit... You're enforcing a rule that is contradicted elsewhere. You're enforcing a rule for an offence that wasn't committed on TotalFreedom or any of it's official or even affiliated platform. You're justifying this that a former admin who hasn't been admin for a number of years should be perm banned for such an offence when the entire point of holding admins and ex-admins accountable was due to repetitional damage where no such damage has been proven in this case. You're justifying this based on someone else who is perm banned and therefore literally not part of this community because they've been banned from it. I'm really struggling to see why you and others are okay with this level of absolute bullshit when there has been no precedent set for this sort of action, and the entire process seems to be a way to try to silence someone who has spoken out against decisions made here. And before I get the "But IA are impartial" they're just not, they are no more or less impartial than I or anyone else in this community. They're just another group of people who get to act as judge jury and executioner at the moment. IA are as impartial as it gets. What I fail to see is how you think it's ok for him to find a child's full legal name and phone number among other things without their consent? Imagine being in that kids position? I'm sorry but there is absolutely nothing you can tell me that would make me sympathetic with Wilee at this point in time. Before you say it isnt related to TF, it absolutely is. He knew Video was requesting this info because of Nathaniel's conduct on TF, on top of this, Nathaniel WAS A PART OF THE DISCORD, which means that any loophole or discussion of him not being a part of the community is thrown out of the window. |
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Geek
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Post by Geek on Jul 18, 2020 16:28:07 GMT
That's because in real life the rules aren't extraordinarily contradictory with the complete opposite being stated in different places and then both being applied at the same time. Comparing this situation to real life is a joke, and even comparing it to the server is a joke considering the years of precedence on this matter we can refer to. And just as another point, you can argue for years on the fact of whether he should have been banned. It's clear where people stand on that, the rules are a clusterfuck and cherry picking happened to ban him. What we should be talking more about though is if the punishment meets the crime. Please show me where the malintent was? Wilee did not seek to harm anyone, he helped out someone seeking to help another. For everyone asking for him to apologize, he didn't act to hurt anyone, he didn't act to attack anyone, he didn't act to scare someone, he acted to try and help someone. He shouldn't apologize, I wouldn't if I were in the same position. It is, perhaps, a stretch to compare it to real life. In that case, then, why would paragraphs 3-5 under question 4 of the ban appeal read like a legal case, examining legal principles? As for his intentions, I'm not sure that's relevant. There is no question under the rules that a DOX on a current admin (for instance) is unacceptable, regardless of intention. I think the only thing that matters significantly is the definition of an 'OP' which - I agree - we can argue about all day and get nowhere about. |
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 17:12:58 GMT
That's absolute bullshit... You're enforcing a rule that is contradicted elsewhere. You're enforcing a rule for an offence that wasn't committed on TotalFreedom or any of it's official or even affiliated platform. You're justifying this that a former admin who hasn't been admin for a number of years should be perm banned for such an offence when the entire point of holding admins and ex-admins accountable was due to repetitional damage where no such damage has been proven in this case. You're justifying this based on someone else who is perm banned and therefore literally not part of this community because they've been banned from it. I'm really struggling to see why you and others are okay with this level of absolute bullshit when there has been no precedent set for this sort of action, and the entire process seems to be a way to try to silence someone who has spoken out against decisions made here. And before I get the "But IA are impartial" they're just not, they are no more or less impartial than I or anyone else in this community. They're just another group of people who get to act as judge jury and executioner at the moment. IA are as impartial as it gets. What I fail to see is how you think it's ok for him to find a child's full legal name and phone number among other things without their consent? Imagine being in that kids position? I'm sorry but there is absolutely nothing you can tell me that would make me sympathetic with Wilee at this point in time. Before you say it isnt related to TF, it absolutely is. He knew Video was requesting this info because of Nathaniel's conduct on TF, on top of this, Nathaniel WAS A PART OF THE DISCORD, which means that any loophole or discussion of him not being a part of the community is thrown out of the window. I'm afraid it's just not true, IA are just another group of people on this server, you can call them impartial but I've yet to see any proof of that. I'm not saying it's Okay, and that's something that you seem to be mis-understanding, but he did not do anything on a TF Platform. The jurisdiction of our rules and when the person is doing something off our platform. You cannot be the police of the internet and enforce our rules in places which are not our responsibility. If you have an issue with his behaviour, you should be reporting it to Discord in this case, or your police. It's not the responsibility of this server to enforce our rules on people where it's not our platform, that's absolute overreach. You assume that he knew, there is no evidence of that from what I've seen, and again, it's irrelevant, it didn't happen on TF / a TF Platform so it's as simple as that. You cannot enforce rules we have on individuals who are not breaking the rules in our platforms. |
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Darth
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Post by Darth on Jul 18, 2020 17:27:38 GMT
IA are as impartial as it gets. What I fail to see is how you think it's ok for him to find a child's full legal name and phone number among other things without their consent? Imagine being in that kids position? I'm sorry but there is absolutely nothing you can tell me that would make me sympathetic with Wilee at this point in time. Before you say it isnt related to TF, it absolutely is. He knew Video was requesting this info because of Nathaniel's conduct on TF, on top of this, Nathaniel WAS A PART OF THE DISCORD, which means that any loophole or discussion of him not being a part of the community is thrown out of the window. I'm afraid it's just not true, IA are just another group of people on this server, you can call them impartial but I've yet to see any proof of that. I'm not saying it's Okay, and that's something that you seem to be mis-understanding, but he did not do anything on a TF Platform. The jurisdiction of our rules and when the person is doing something off our platform. You cannot be the police of the internet and enforce our rules in places which are not our responsibility. If you have an issue with his behaviour, you should be reporting it to Discord in this case, or your police. It's not the responsibility of this server to enforce our rules on people where it's not our platform, that's absolute overreach. You assume that he knew, there is no evidence of that from what I've seen, and again, it's irrelevant, it didn't happen on TF / a TF Platform so it's as simple as that. You cannot enforce rules we have on individuals who are not breaking the rules in our platforms. And yet people get fired from their jobs for the racist shit they say online. |
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mibbzz
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Post by mibbzz on Jul 18, 2020 18:14:31 GMT
That's because in real life the rules aren't extraordinarily contradictory with the complete opposite being stated in different places and then both being applied at the same time. Comparing this situation to real life is a joke, and even comparing it to the server is a joke considering the years of precedence on this matter we can refer to. And just as another point, you can argue for years on the fact of whether he should have been banned. It's clear where people stand on that, the rules are a clusterfuck and cherry picking happened to ban him. What we should be talking more about though is if the punishment meets the crime. Please show me where the malintent was? Wilee did not seek to harm anyone, he helped out someone seeking to help another. For everyone asking for him to apologize, he didn't act to hurt anyone, he didn't act to attack anyone, he didn't act to scare someone, he acted to try and help someone. He shouldn't apologize, I wouldn't if I were in the same position. It is, perhaps, a stretch to compare it to real life. In that case, then, why would paragraphs 3-5 under question 4 of the ban appeal read like a legal case, examining legal principles? As for his intentions, I'm not sure that's relevant. There is no question under the rules that a DOX on a current admin (for instance) is unacceptable, regardless of intention. I think the only thing that matters significantly is the definition of an 'OP' which - I agree - we can argue about all day and get nowhere about. Because wilee is a retard, doesn't mean the rest of us need to be retarded as well. What he is saying though is that the intent of his actions was not of malicious intent, as everyone here can agree. He made a mistake, he did not know it was against the rules based on a reading of the actual rules on the forums and not some obscure rule hidden away on discord that I didn't even know existed until this thread, and he's been banned for almost a month now. He's served more than enough time for his actions, and I don't understand why this is even a discussion (outside of the actual if it should be a rule thing, which is a different conversation entirely frankly). Tldr; he sought to help someone, broke an obscure rule that contradicted other rules we had in place and years of those rules being applied, has been banned for a month and there's no reason he shouldn't be allowed back now. |
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 18:50:37 GMT
I'm afraid it's just not true, IA are just another group of people on this server, you can call them impartial but I've yet to see any proof of that. I'm not saying it's Okay, and that's something that you seem to be mis-understanding, but he did not do anything on a TF Platform. The jurisdiction of our rules and when the person is doing something off our platform. You cannot be the police of the internet and enforce our rules in places which are not our responsibility. If you have an issue with his behaviour, you should be reporting it to Discord in this case, or your police. It's not the responsibility of this server to enforce our rules on people where it's not our platform, that's absolute overreach. You assume that he knew, there is no evidence of that from what I've seen, and again, it's irrelevant, it didn't happen on TF / a TF Platform so it's as simple as that. You cannot enforce rules we have on individuals who are not breaking the rules in our platforms. And yet people get fired from their jobs for the racist shit they say online. Again, please read what I'm actually saying. People can get fired for what they say on line (Which to be fair I'm not sure how well that usually goes, it's pretty hard at least here in the UK to sack people, would imagine a lot that got fired ended up winning massive lawsuits for wrongful dismissal) and I'm not saying we can't sanction an active admin for what they do off the server, that's always been part of the way we have operated, and I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that we can't be banning those people for a rule that they've not broken on our platform... For the last time, you're not the internet police... If they broke the Discord TOS or the law, report them to the relevant authorities... I'm also arguing that the rules at the time were contradicted in other formats and at absolute worst the individuals should have been banned from Discord, and even then I'd say that's a stretch. You can 'Fire' an admin for all I care, but banning players for doing zero wrong going on our platforms is where I think it's unacceptable. Can we also all remember, this is literally an un-written rule... Someones been banned for a rule that didn't even exist at the time, and directly contradicts the current forum posting guidelines... It was an unwritten rule (now stated in the updated policy) on the forums that I would remove anyone from all platforms if they were caught DDoSing / doxxing. |
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Post by zekurt on Jul 18, 2020 22:22:42 GMT
No one should be doxing members of this community (which he was) regardless of the rules... It's common fucking decency. No one should have to be worried about being doxed by someone here because it's technically okay (which it's still not). Fucking ridiculous. Then file a police report... We're not the fucking internet police for the last bloody time. What? We protect the fucking members of our server, how can you not understand that? No one is talking about legality here. |
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miwo
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Post by miwo on Jul 18, 2020 22:24:14 GMT
Then file a police report... We're not the fucking internet police for the last bloody time. What? We protect the fucking members of our server, how can you not understand that? Except the individual in question is not a fucking member, how can you not understand that? Fucking riduculous. |
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Post by zekurt on Jul 18, 2020 22:26:22 GMT
What? We protect the fucking members of our server, how can you not understand that? Except the individual in question is not a fucking member, how can you not understand that? Fucking riduculous. He was a member of the discord, and the executive admin considers him to have been one, so that is what I base my statement off of. If you disagree with the executive admin, the person who interprets policy, and wrote said policy, that is on you. |
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Luke
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Post by Luke on Jul 18, 2020 22:29:01 GMT
Then file a police report... We're not the fucking internet police for the last bloody time. What? We protect the fucking members of our server, how can you not understand that? No one is talking about legality here. What? We protect the fucking members of our server, how can you not understand that? Except the individual in question is not a fucking member, how can you not understand that? Fucking riduculous. no whats fucking ridiculous is that this arguement is still going on. this goes for the both of you, you don't need the last word. Can you honestly see an outcome where this arguement continues and either one of you change your outlook? Why can't yall just go 'ight theres no point arguing lets stop'? This part isn't aimed at you guys in particular but this is a problem consistent with this forum, everyone has to have the last word, which leads to cases like this where theres 9 pages of arguing that ultimately adds nothing to the thread? Im asking this as a member, not as an admin or as staff or anything official, please take this to PMs |
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 22:36:09 GMT
Then file a police report... We're not the fucking internet police for the last bloody time. What? We protect the fucking members of our server, how can you not understand that? No one is talking about legality here. You're overreaching in your power... It's really as simple as that. This had not occurred on any of our platforms, it therefore is not subject to our rules. I don't understand why that's so hard to grasp...? |
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 22:38:15 GMT
What? We protect the fucking members of our server, how can you not understand that? No one is talking about legality here. Except the individual in question is not a fucking member, how can you not understand that? Fucking riduculous. no whats fucking ridiculous is that this arguement is still going on. this goes for the both of you, you don't need the last word. Can you honestly see an outcome where this arguement continues and either one of you change your outlook? Why can't yall just go 'ight theres no point arguing lets stop'? This part isn't aimed at you guys in particular but this is a problem consistent with this forum, everyone has to have the last word, which leads to cases like this where theres 9 pages of arguing that ultimately adds nothing to the thread? Im asking this as a member, not as an admin or as staff or anything official, please take this to PMsUnfortunately it's a valid discussion. This is highlighting that something is fundamentally fucked here and it's relevant to the appeal in that I (And it seems others) don't believe the ban was valid in the first place. This ALL ignores the fact that there is no evidence an actual dox occurred... All of my argument assumed that even happened, but by definition it hasn't... |
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Post by zekurt on Jul 18, 2020 22:40:48 GMT
What? We protect the fucking members of our server, how can you not understand that? No one is talking about legality here. You're overreaching in your power... It's really as simple as that. This had not occurred on any of our platforms, it therefore is not subject to our rules. I don't understand why that's so hard to grasp...? First of all I didn't do anything. Secondly, the rule states that any doxing is subject to our rules. Of course they're not going to publish their dox onto one of or platforms, don't be ridiculous. Wilee and Video did break the rules. Punishing people who break our rules is not an overreach of power. If you want this to change, suggest that the rules be changed. |
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