1cloud_
Veteran Member
hi
Posts: 315
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Post by 1cloud_ on Feb 18, 2020 1:02:33 GMT
Vouch, minus tab colors.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Feb 18, 2020 1:14:13 GMT
Why not just give these perks to every player regardless of whether they vote or not? This is a freedom server. It depends on what you consider more important: attracting new players or everyone having access to a feature without having to vote. I don't see how the latter isn't the obvious answer. When did we change our view on freedom from "you are have access to any feature within the rules" to "you have access to any feature within the rules provided you assist in the advertisement of this server"? Yes, these are small perks, but at this point most features are small perks and these things add up. We shouldn't be like every other server which has to obnoxiously plead to players for their vote, we should stick to the core aspects of the server which is that we offer players a quality, free experience without them having to do a thing for us, and any advertisement or high server rankings we get is purely corresponding to offering players that experience instead of shoving reward systems into their faces.
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Post by Captainclimber on Feb 18, 2020 5:37:25 GMT
Vouch for an incentive to voting.
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StevenNL2000
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Post by StevenNL2000 on Feb 18, 2020 9:51:45 GMT
It depends on what you consider more important: attracting new players or everyone having access to a feature without having to vote. I don't see how the latter isn't the obvious answer. When did we change our view on freedom from "you are have access to any feature within the rules" to "you have access to any feature within the rules provided you assist in the advertisement of this server"? Yes, these are small perks, but at this point most features are small perks and these things add up. We shouldn't be like every other server which has to obnoxiously plead to players for their vote, we should stick to the core aspects of the server which is that we offer players a quality, free experience without them having to do a thing for us, and any advertisement or high server rankings we get is purely corresponding to offering players that experience instead of shoving reward systems into their faces. It might be the obvious answer from a conceptual point of view, but it doesn't seem very obvious to me looking at the votes.
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noah
Full Member
dank
Posts: 238
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Post by noah on Feb 18, 2020 10:38:59 GMT
thanks for all the vouches! <3
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square
Veteran Member
Asst. Creative Designer
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Post by square on Feb 18, 2020 14:40:27 GMT
It depends on what you consider more important: attracting new players or everyone having access to a feature without having to vote. I don't see how the latter isn't the obvious answer. When did we change our view on freedom from "you are have access to any feature within the rules" to "you have access to any feature within the rules provided you assist in the advertisement of this server"? Yes, these are small perks, but at this point most features are small perks and these things add up. We shouldn't be like every other server which has to obnoxiously plead to players for their vote, we should stick to the core aspects of the server which is that we offer players a quality, free experience without them having to do a thing for us, and any advertisement or high server rankings we get is purely corresponding to offering players that experience instead of shoving reward systems into their faces. nobody is on our server but hey atleast we can change our login messages
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2020 15:42:59 GMT
everyone having access is what kaboom turned out to be Since when did voting become a prerequisite to having freedom on the server? Just because it's called TotalFreedom isn't a server that actively offers freedom to OPs at every single opportunity. There are countless instances one could complain about the fact that we are not maximizing the amount of freedom OPs receive. At this point I believe the server's playerbase a bigger concern, as compared to the honestly pretty much irrelevant rewards we're talking about here that you can get through a process that takes near zero effort and helps out the server. Honestly as a player I'd rather have more other players to interact with than a couple bonus perks.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2020 19:37:01 GMT
The login messages could become a problem. It could be abused, if someone used spambots on the same IP, I'm sure it would be the same message as well?
Apart from that vouch!
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Feb 18, 2020 23:53:49 GMT
I don't see how the latter isn't the obvious answer. When did we change our view on freedom from "you are have access to any feature within the rules" to "you have access to any feature within the rules provided you assist in the advertisement of this server"? Yes, these are small perks, but at this point most features are small perks and these things add up. We shouldn't be like every other server which has to obnoxiously plead to players for their vote, we should stick to the core aspects of the server which is that we offer players a quality, free experience without them having to do a thing for us, and any advertisement or high server rankings we get is purely corresponding to offering players that experience instead of shoving reward systems into their faces. nobody is on our server but hey atleast we can change our login messages If your argument is that there has been significant damage to our playerbase, shoving voting in people's faces and offering a reward system will not fix that. If our playerbase is stagnant, then we can do things like this to gain maybe a few more people at the expense of some core values this server has had for the past 10 years, or we can start considering other factors than voting. My main point is that the peak in popularity of this server was at a time when little effort was made into advertising and certainly nobody cared about voting, so if we're getting this desperate then I'm worried that there are important factors that are being ignored in favor of simply boosting our numbers, and if we go that route then we actually risk further losing players as well as unique qualities that this server has.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Feb 18, 2020 23:57:32 GMT
Since when did voting become a prerequisite to having freedom on the server? Just because it's called TotalFreedom isn't a server that actively offers freedom to OPs at every single opportunity. There are countless instances one could complain about the fact that we are not maximizing the amount of freedom OPs receive. At this point I believe the server's playerbase a bigger concern, as compared to the honestly pretty much irrelevant rewards we're talking about here that you can get through a process that takes near zero effort and helps out the server. Honestly as a player I'd rather have more other players to interact with than a couple bonus perks. My point is that it leads down a slippery slope where we compromise more freedom in order to achieve a dream of having more people online, in comparison to the past of this server where we certainly had a lot of people online but simultaneously didn't have to make compromises in freedom in order to do so. Given that we have actually concerned ourselves more with advertising in recent times than we have ever before, wouldn't you think that any other factors are in play other than advertising if we are actually more concerned with our player count than we have been in the past?
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Feb 18, 2020 23:59:26 GMT
I don't see how the latter isn't the obvious answer. When did we change our view on freedom from "you are have access to any feature within the rules" to "you have access to any feature within the rules provided you assist in the advertisement of this server"? Yes, these are small perks, but at this point most features are small perks and these things add up. We shouldn't be like every other server which has to obnoxiously plead to players for their vote, we should stick to the core aspects of the server which is that we offer players a quality, free experience without them having to do a thing for us, and any advertisement or high server rankings we get is purely corresponding to offering players that experience instead of shoving reward systems into their faces. It might be the obvious answer from a conceptual point of view, but it doesn't seem very obvious to me looking at the votes. And how does that help us out? If we don't consider a conceptual point of view, then how are we supposed to analyze all of the factors that go into player count other than just simply having more people voting? I think that this issue has been trivialized into a matter of just doing whatever we can to incentivize people to vote when there is much more that should be considered before we go down a route like this.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 8:28:34 GMT
It depends on what you consider more important: attracting new players or everyone having access to a feature without having to vote. I don't see how the latter isn't the obvious answer. When did we change our view on freedom from "you are have access to any feature within the rules" to "you have access to any feature within the rules provided you assist in the advertisement of this server"? Yes, these are small perks, but at this point most features are small perks and these things add up. We shouldn't be like every other server which has to obnoxiously plead to players for their vote, we should stick to the core aspects of the server which is that we offer players a quality, free experience without them having to do a thing for us, and any advertisement or high server rankings we get is purely corresponding to offering players that experience instead of shoving reward systems into their faces. Unfortunately, server growth doesn't work like this anymore- and hasn't since 2012 (assuming this is the last time you logged onto TF). There's a reason why every server under the penumbra of multiplayer Minecraft capitalizes on a thing called FF, or "free further " player engagement. This free engagement, again unfortunately for us, is, in general, never expected without any return for players. Making a YouTube video, for example, git us 50,000+ views, and significantly grew our community. Posting on various server listing sites (although this method is somewhat useless nowadays), is another example of player engagement, brought forth by us. These types of methods are completely different from FF, and are the only types that can be effective without any ROI, so to speak. I'm not quite sure how you think Minecraft works, but players don't talk to one another about their favorite servers anymore, and really haven't in almost a decade (YouTube, obviously, being that exception). Ultimately, you are causing us to inadvertently run up a preverbal treadmill at this point, and a decision we're clearly going to have to make is this: Do we want less players to have increased freedom, or more players to enjoy less freedom? Do we want TF to have sustained longevity at 10 players an hour? Or 40? Do we want those 10 players to have every non-destructive power under the sun, and not have them use the forums, discord, vote, and promote the growth of TF? Personally I'd much rather have 50 players with the same amount of freedom, and if some of those said 50 players want to vote for a cosmetic perk, and promote the servers sustained growth while doing so, so be it. Which do we value more? Which freedoms are essential to TF? Which freedoms are expanded, and on the flip-side, which can be tweaked to be used to increase TF's sustained growth? Truthfully, answers to this should come from players who play the server, and not from a non-playing freedom forum philanthropist extraordinaire. I don't mean to be so rash, but essential questions like this need to be solved by players who play the server, not admins, nor legacy staff.
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Post by CoconutCereal on Feb 19, 2020 15:12:52 GMT
Could work. Vouch
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Feb 19, 2020 17:44:52 GMT
I don't see how the latter isn't the obvious answer. When did we change our view on freedom from "you are have access to any feature within the rules" to "you have access to any feature within the rules provided you assist in the advertisement of this server"? Yes, these are small perks, but at this point most features are small perks and these things add up. We shouldn't be like every other server which has to obnoxiously plead to players for their vote, we should stick to the core aspects of the server which is that we offer players a quality, free experience without them having to do a thing for us, and any advertisement or high server rankings we get is purely corresponding to offering players that experience instead of shoving reward systems into their faces. Unfortunately, server growth doesn't work like this anymore- and hasn't since 2012 (assuming this is the last time you logged onto TF). There's a reason why every server under the penumbra of multiplayer Minecraft capitalizes on a thing called FF, or "free further " player engagement. This free engagement, again unfortunately for us, is, in general, never expected without any return for players. Making a YouTube video, for example, git us 50,000+ views, and significantly grew our community. Posting on various server listing sites (although this method is somewhat useless nowadays), is another example of player engagement, brought forth by us. These types of methods are completely different from FF, and are the only types that can be effective without any ROI, so to speak. I'm not quite sure how you think Minecraft works, but players don't talk to one another about their favorite servers anymore, and really haven't in almost a decade (YouTube, obviously, being that exception). Ultimately, you are causing us to inadvertently run up a preverbal treadmill at this point, and a decision we're clearly going to have to make is this: Do we want less players to have increased freedom, or more players to enjoy less freedom? Do we want TF to have sustained longevity at 10 players an hour? Or 40? Do we want those 10 players to have every non-destructive power under the sun, and not have them use the forums, discord, vote, and promote the growth of TF? Personally I'd much rather have 50 players with the same amount of freedom, and if some of those said 50 players want to vote for a cosmetic perk, and promote the servers sustained growth while doing so, so be it. Which do we value more? Which freedoms are essential to TF? Which freedoms are expanded, and on the flip-side, which can be tweaked to be used to increase TF's sustained growth? Truthfully, answers to this should come from players who play the server, and not from a non-playing freedom forum philanthropist extraordinaire. I don't mean to be so rash, but essential questions like this need to be solved by players who play the server, not admins, nor legacy staff. You've sort of missed the entire point. My point is that the question "do we want less players to have increased freedom, or more players to enjoy less freedom" is being asserted as the reality which determines our fate when there is more to this than meets the eye. You say at the end that answers should come from players who play the server rather than me, but if you have actually read my posts you'd notice that I haven't actually provided "the" answer to player retention, which makes it pretty intellectually dishonest for you to assert a false notion that I'm trying to "answer" essential questions. If anything, I'm bringing up these questions to expand the scope of this discussion so that we can consider all of the important factors that go into player retention rather than only worrying about how many people are voting for the server. I think that there is a problem that is preventing the server from having the type of popularity that it had years ago which goes further than just our advertising capabilities, and I think that it is not only ignorant but also dangerous to the server here to not consider all of the factors at play here that go into that problem. My point here is that I don't believe for a second that the only thing preventing TF from expanding is that not enough people are voting, or there isn't enough advertisement. Again I'm not pretending to know exactly what goes into this but I'm saying that we should put forth an effort as a community to figure out each possible factor, while trying to preserve the values & uniqueness of this server in doing so. I have a hard time believing that it's all about advertisement when we have been putting more pressure on advertisement & voting than we ever have in the past, but yet this is still a problem. So, the question would actually be, would we rather put all our chips into the basket of voting & advertisement, or should we experiment with multiple solutions (not excluding voting & advertisement) such as increasing player freedom or providing more features for players? We not only want to get players onto the server, but we also want to retain them, and that requires offering a great experience. Therefore, we should look into how we can not only bring more people in but also retain them and doing that will require more than what the scope of the conversation is limited to right now.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 18:34:13 GMT
Unfortunately, server growth doesn't work like this anymore- and hasn't since 2012 (assuming this is the last time you logged onto TF). There's a reason why every server under the penumbra of multiplayer Minecraft capitalizes on a thing called FF, or "free further " player engagement. This free engagement, again unfortunately for us, is, in general, never expected without any return for players. Making a YouTube video, for example, git us 50,000+ views, and significantly grew our community. Posting on various server listing sites (although this method is somewhat useless nowadays), is another example of player engagement, brought forth by us. These types of methods are completely different from FF, and are the only types that can be effective without any ROI, so to speak. I'm not quite sure how you think Minecraft works, but players don't talk to one another about their favorite servers anymore, and really haven't in almost a decade (YouTube, obviously, being that exception). Ultimately, you are causing us to inadvertently run up a preverbal treadmill at this point, and a decision we're clearly going to have to make is this: Do we want less players to have increased freedom, or more players to enjoy less freedom? Do we want TF to have sustained longevity at 10 players an hour? Or 40? Do we want those 10 players to have every non-destructive power under the sun, and not have them use the forums, discord, vote, and promote the growth of TF? Personally I'd much rather have 50 players with the same amount of freedom, and if some of those said 50 players want to vote for a cosmetic perk, and promote the servers sustained growth while doing so, so be it. Which do we value more? Which freedoms are essential to TF? Which freedoms are expanded, and on the flip-side, which can be tweaked to be used to increase TF's sustained growth? Truthfully, answers to this should come from players who play the server, and not from a non-playing freedom forum philanthropist extraordinaire. I don't mean to be so rash, but essential questions like this need to be solved by players who play the server, not admins, nor legacy staff. You've sort of missed the entire point. My point is that the question "do we want less players to have increased freedom, or more players to enjoy less freedom" is being asserted as the reality which determines our fate when there is more to this than meets the eye. You say at the end that answers should come from players who play the server rather than me, but if you have actually read my posts you'd notice that I haven't actually provided "the" answer to player retention, which makes it pretty intellectually dishonest for you to assert a false notion that I'm trying to "answer" essential questions. If anything, I'm bringing up these questions to expand the scope of this discussion so that we can consider all of the important factors that go into player retention rather than only worrying about how many people are voting for the server. I think that there is a problem that is preventing the server from having the type of popularity that it had years ago which goes further than just our advertising capabilities, and I think that it is not only ignorant but also dangerous to the server here to not consider all of the factors at play here that go into that problem. My point here is that I don't believe for a second that the only thing preventing TF from expanding is that not enough people are voting, or there isn't enough advertisement. Again I'm not pretending to know exactly what goes into this but I'm saying that we should put forth an effort as a community to figure out each possible factor, while trying to preserve the values & uniqueness of this server in doing so. I have a hard time believing that it's all about advertisement when we have been putting more pressure on advertisement & voting than we ever have in the past, but yet this is still a problem. So, the question would actually be, would we rather put all our chips into the basket of voting & advertisement, or should we experiment with multiple solutions (not excluding voting & advertisement) such as increasing player freedom or providing more features for players? We not only want to get players onto the server, but we also want to retain them, and that requires offering a great experience. Therefore, we should look into how we can not only bring more people in but also retain them and doing that will require more than what the scope of the conversation is limited to right now. The problem is that our old base as more or less moved on. Sure, we have legacy players stop in here and there, but our entire community will not, and let me make myself clear, WILL NOT, thrive much longer if we are contingent on bringing back what TF was, and the players that came with that. We need to focus on the future, and take what we did in the past, in stride. Sure, it may be a lack of freedom, but truthfully, for a decade old minecraft server, our exposure is extremely miniscule. We need to capitalize on our rich history, and do everything in our power to maintain our decade long streak of prowess. We need to focus on attracting a new playerbase, contingent on creating new history, not re-living the past. And, with the timely release of new social media exposure, SEO, youtube content creators, and more, we will, and I'll once again repeat myself, we WILL succeed in doing that. #TF2020 baby
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