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Post by mychaeljkmax on Jul 26, 2019 16:58:39 GMT
Polaris Seltzeris, just for additional clarification, I’d like to know if you have a personal opinion as to how the accumulation of more admins is directly correlated with less OPs wanting to use the server. I know that the idea of an excess number of admins to OPs is generally the issue that is brought up by some admins here on the forum.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 18:29:48 GMT
I don’t feel anything is wrong with the current system, nor did I feel anything was wrong with the system mark initially established. I think that there will always be something to improve upon, and if you look into something hard enough, you will always find flaws. No matter how many restrictions we set on the admin system, we’d probably still end up with a few “problem admins” (as mark dubbed them) here and there. No admin is perfect, and some are more motivated and serious than others who take things lightly. At the end of the day, an admin is an admin. Even assuming the systems we’ve had so far are heavily flawed, we’ve ended up with a fairly large chunk of excellent admins that have impacted the server for the better. So we shouldn't fix these issues, because there will always be problems and things to improve? If we were to make it harder to get Admin, of course we would have way less "problem Admins" - that's just common sense. Can you tell me, wtf you were trying to say with this post other than a nice-sounding paragraph with no substance? You can always have one system that may be much more improved and smooth-sailing than the other, but regardless, no system will ever be perfect. I’m not claiming that our current system is flawless; however, I also don’t think it is as poorly managed as a large chunk of the community claims it to be. And what does this have to do with the OP? Even if you disagree with how Wilee percieves the situation doesn't negate the fact that there will always be room for improvement and that we should strive for it - you're sounding like you're contempt with what we have now, and that we shouldn't change a thing At that point it becomes a matter of philosophy. The philosophy that mark had about how to manage admins and quantity over quality was just fine in his eyes, and many admins supported this philosophy. On the other hand, there were many admins who were against it. Every system will be more well-suited to some groups of admins than others. While some admins might think we need major improvement, others might believe nothing needs to be changed. What are you saiyng? In what way has this been a constructive contribution to the conversation? ?Polaris Seltzeris, just for additional clarification, I’d like to know if you have a personal opinion as to how the accumulation of more admins is directly correlated with less OPs wanting to use the server. I know that the idea of an excess number of admins to OPs is generally the issue that is brought up by some admins here on the forum. He never said that - what I understood from his thread is that players are heavily incentivised to become Admins due to the additional perks associated with said title. As an op you don't get nearly as many perks, and therefore you are not going to have the same "positive experience" as you would if you had the same permissions as an Admin. This could include expansion on WE limits, less banned blocks and so on. The Admin rank is not supposed to be a title that enhances your experience on TF, it is merely supposed to be an adminstrative rank that helps protect the server - a volunteer job. |
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Post by mychaeljkmax on Jul 26, 2019 21:16:53 GMT
I don’t feel anything is wrong with the current system, nor did I feel anything was wrong with the system mark initially established. I think that there will always be something to improve upon, and if you look into something hard enough, you will always find flaws. No matter how many restrictions we set on the admin system, we’d probably still end up with a few “problem admins” (as mark dubbed them) here and there. No admin is perfect, and some are more motivated and serious than others who take things lightly. At the end of the day, an admin is an admin. Even assuming the systems we’ve had so far are heavily flawed, we’ve ended up with a fairly large chunk of excellent admins that have impacted the server for the better. I'm definitely not stating that we can't fix problems, I'm just stating that no matter how many problems we do fix, or how well the system is managed, there will always be some sort of downside, because absolutely nothing is perfect. That's not the point though; perfection isn't at all what is important. You can always have one system that may be much more improved and smooth-sailing than the other, but regardless, no system will ever be perfect. I’m not claiming that our current system is flawless; however, I also don’t think it is as poorly managed as a large chunk of the community claims it to be.
This point has to do with the OP because a quoted post from the OP describes flaws in the system according to some admins, and I am stating that I don't agree that the system is as flawed as they do. At that point it becomes a matter of philosophy. The philosophy that mark had about how to manage admins and quantity over quality was just fine in his eyes, and many admins supported this philosophy. On the other hand, there were many admins who were against it. Every system will be more well-suited to some groups of admins than others. While some admins might think we need major improvement, others might believe nothing needs to be changed. Here I am stating how not every admin is going to see eye to how as to how the admin system should be managed. Therefore, some admins might think there are problems with the system while others are in favor of it. That's why a handful of admins have voted in support of this suggestion while a handful have not. ?Polaris Seltzeris, just for additional clarification, I’d like to know if you have a personal opinion as to how the accumulation of more admins is directly correlated with less OPs wanting to use the server. I know that the idea of an excess number of admins to OPs is generally the issue that is brought up by some admins here on the forum.
I am aware that Wilee never stated this himself, but some admins who share his perspective do believe this to be one of the sole causes for why the player base has declined. The beginning of the quoted post by Zekurt in the OP states it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 0:57:21 GMT
I think far too much time has passed for this suggestion to ever be seriously reconsidered. It was a long shot when I posted it -- so what does that make it now?
But the fact that the original thread barely got a single objection, and this one is mostly objections, might speak a bit to how the server itself has changed.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 30, 2019 1:14:29 GMT
I think far too much time has passed for this suggestion to ever be seriously reconsidered. It was a long shot when I posted it -- so what does that make it now? But the fact that the original thread barely got a single objection, and this one is mostly objections, might speak a bit to how the server itself has changed. I see 16 objections and yet I don't see 16 posts on why this is a bad idea. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 1:33:58 GMT
I think far too much time has passed for this suggestion to ever be seriously reconsidered. It was a long shot when I posted it -- so what does that make it now? But the fact that the original thread barely got a single objection, and this one is mostly objections, might speak a bit to how the server itself has changed. I see 16 objections and yet I don't see 16 posts on why this is a bad idea. Even still, the point of my original post was to convince people why we needed those changes. It worked enough back then, but clearly it's failing to do so now. The actual suggestions were an afterthought because I knew it would not be accepted. People are objecting now because the post isn't convincing people like it once did. The post is not as compelling or up to date as it used to be. (not as to say that the post is suddenly wrong) Rather than regurgitating a post that was meant to tackle the issue at hand years ago, new material should be written that can change peoples minds. And I have long since passed that torch off. (quite honestly, stopped caring) |
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 30, 2019 1:53:04 GMT
I see 16 objections and yet I don't see 16 posts on why this is a bad idea. Even still, the point of my original post was to convince people why we needed those changes. It worked enough back then, but clearly it's failing to do so now. The actual suggestions were an afterthought because I knew it would not be accepted. People are objecting now because the post isn't convincing people like it once did. The post is not as compelling or up to date as it used to be. (not as to say that the post is suddenly wrong) Rather than regurgitating a post that was meant to tackle the issue at hand years ago, new material should be written that can change peoples minds. And I have long since passed that torch off. (quite honestly, stopped caring) I can't say much more than I have over the past year. The way I see it, it's either we start the changes now, or wait until it's too late or something bad happens again. There is a force of people that are utterly content and blinded with the current system by their own power status, and would rather stagnate if it means the promotion system which is personally benefiting them is intact. What happens when you have a zombie system from 2013 which hasn't had quality of life updates or changes and you keep executing that same old system eternally? You suffer from a slow collapse, and at this rate we may not be able to address it if change isn't properly met. Consider this Total Freedom's equivalent of climate change. This stagnation period we're in isn't going to suddenly turn around. Minecraft recently had its biggest resurgence in years, has it really benefited us? The problem isn't Minecraft. The problem is us. If we're going to subject ourselves to this for the personal benefits of a few people still clinging onto that admin ladder, we will pass a tipping point somewhere along the line. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 13:47:57 GMT
I don’t feel anything is wrong with the current system, nor did I feel anything was wrong with the system mark initially established. I think that there will always be something to improve upon, and if you look into something hard enough, you will always find flaws. No matter how many restrictions we set on the admin system, we’d probably still end up with a few “problem admins” (as mark dubbed them) here and there. No admin is perfect, and some are more motivated and serious than others who take things lightly. At the end of the day, an admin is an admin. Even assuming the systems we’ve had so far are heavily flawed, we’ve ended up with a fairly large chunk of excellent admins that have impacted the server for the better. I'm definitely not stating that we can't fix problems, I'm just stating that no matter how many problems we do fix, or how well the system is managed, there will always be some sort of downside, because absolutely nothing is perfect. That's not the point though; perfection isn't at all what is important. You can always have one system that may be much more improved and smooth-sailing than the other, but regardless, no system will ever be perfect. I’m not claiming that our current system is flawless; however, I also don’t think it is as poorly managed as a large chunk of the community claims it to be.
This point has to do with the OP because a quoted post from the OP describes flaws in the system according to some admins, and I am stating that I don't agree that the system is as flawed as they do. At that point it becomes a matter of philosophy. The philosophy that mark had about how to manage admins and quantity over quality was just fine in his eyes, and many admins supported this philosophy. On the other hand, there were many admins who were against it. Every system will be more well-suited to some groups of admins than others. While some admins might think we need major improvement, others might believe nothing needs to be changed. Here I am stating how not every admin is going to see eye to how as to how the admin system should be managed. Therefore, some admins might think there are problems with the system while others are in favor of it. That's why a handful of admins have voted in support of this suggestion while a handful have not. ?Polaris Seltzeris, just for additional clarification, I’d like to know if you have a personal opinion as to how the accumulation of more admins is directly correlated with less OPs wanting to use the server. I know that the idea of an excess number of admins to OPs is generally the issue that is brought up by some admins here on the forum.
I am aware that Wilee never stated this himself, but some admins who share his perspective do believe this to be one of the sole causes for why the player base has declined. The beginning of the quoted post by Zekurt in the OP states it. Your logic is inherently flawed. You wouldn’t’ be getting any progress done if you were to subscribe to your own belief, because “Nothing is perfect” – just because something can never be perfect does not mean you shouldn’t continue to strive for it to be so. On what aspects do you disagree with Wilee? Come with specifics instead of generalizations devoid of any substance, otherwise your comment will merely appear as fluff. |
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Post by mychaeljkmax on Jul 30, 2019 15:34:03 GMT
"So we shouldn't fix these issues, because there will always be problems and things to improve? If we were to make it harder to get Admin, of course we would have way less "problem Admins" - that's just common sense. Can you tell me, wtf you were trying to say with this post other than a nice-sounding paragraph with no substance?"I'm definitely not stating that we can't fix problems, I'm just stating that no matter how many problems we do fix, or how well the system is managed, there will always be some sort of downside, because absolutely nothing is perfect. That's not the point though; perfection isn't at all what is important. "And what does this have to do with the OP? Even if you disagree with how Wilee percieves the situation doesn't negate the fact that there will always be room for improvement and that we should strive for it - you're sounding like you're contempt with what we have now, and that we shouldn't change a thing"
This point has to do with the OP because a quoted post from the OP describes flaws in the system according to some admins, and I am stating that I don't agree that the system is as flawed as they do. "What are you saiyng? In what way has this been a constructive contribution to the conversation?"Here I am stating how not every admin is going to see eye to how as to how the admin system should be managed. Therefore, some admins might think there are problems with the system while others are in favor of it. That's why a handful of admins have voted in support of this suggestion while a handful have not. "He never said that - what I understood from his thread is that players are heavily incentivised to become Admins due to the additional perks associated with said title. As an op you don't get nearly as many perks, and therefore you are not going to have the same "positive experience" as you would if you had the same permissions as an Admin. This could include expansion on WE limits, less banned blocks and so on. The Admin rank is not supposed to be a title that enhances your experience on TF, it is merely supposed to be an adminstrative rank that helps protect the server - a volunteer job."
I am aware that Wilee never stated this himself, but some admins who share his perspective do believe this to be one of the sole causes for why the player base has declined. The beginning of the quoted post by Zekurt in the OP states it. Your logic is inherently flawed. You wouldn’t’ be getting any progress done if you were to subscribe to your own belief, because “Nothing is perfect” – just because something can never be perfect does not mean you shouldn’t continue to strive for it to be so. On what aspects do you disagree with Wilee? Come with specifics instead of generalizations devoid of any substance, otherwise your comment will merely appear as fluff. I could sum this up in my own words, but to make it quicker, I essentially agree with this thread: totalfreedom.boards.net/thread/49567/admin-quantity-qualityThat’s not to say that we shouldn’t strive for good quality admins, but the truth is, a volunteer job will always have some degree of fun to it, especially if it is for a game server. I agree that admins should perform their duties to the best of their ability and yes, the main purpose of being admin is not to have fun but to enforce the server’s conduct policies. However, it can’t hurt for it to also be enjoyable to an extent - even so, not every single OP is going to want to be admin. There are still a good handful of OPs who connect to the server on a daily basis and seem to show no intentions of obtaining admin status. There are a good handful of people here who believe that more admins is a negative thing, but I actually disagree. Yes, if the vast majority of admins were toxic or contributed nothing but drama, I would agree that we need to drastically cut down on the number. However, having a fairly large quantity of admins is very useful for a server like this, where rules are constantly being broken. If anything, it’s better to have more admins online to respond to problems than it is to have a select few admins who are unable to respond the majority of the time. Note that when I say I think that admins should be able to have fun, I don’t mean it in the sense that it is acceptable for them to abuse their power or misuse administrative commands. Administration in itself can be considered enjoyable, and many of the admins here consider it a hobby. Even if you were to put higher restrictions on the rank and make it much more difficult to earn, it would probably still be something that OPs would find fun. I don’t think it’s necessary to remove all incentive to become an admin. I only think it’s necessary to filter out admins who are nothing but toxic and contribute nothing but contempt and drama to the community. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 16:11:18 GMT
Your logic is inherently flawed. You wouldn’t’ be getting any progress done if you were to subscribe to your own belief, because “Nothing is perfect” – just because something can never be perfect does not mean you shouldn’t continue to strive for it to be so. On what aspects do you disagree with Wilee? Come with specifics instead of generalizations devoid of any substance, otherwise your comment will merely appear as fluff. I could sum this up in my own words, but to make it quicker, I essentially agree with this thread: totalfreedom.boards.net/thread/49567/admin-quantity-qualityThat’s not to say that we shouldn’t strive for good quality admins, but the truth is, a volunteer job will always have some degree of fun to it, especially if it is for a game server. I agree that admins should perform their duties to the best of their ability and yes, the main purpose of being admin is not to have fun but to enforce the server’s conduct policies. However, it can’t hurt for it to also be enjoyable to an extent - even so, not every single OP is going to want to be admin. There are still a good handful of OPs who connect to the server on a daily basis and seem to show no intentions of obtaining admin status. There are a good handful of people here who believe that more admins is a negative thing, but I actually disagree. Yes, if the vast majority of admins were toxic or contributed nothing but drama, I would agree that we need to drastically cut down on the number. However, having a fairly large quantity of admins is very useful for a server like this, where rules are constantly being broken. If anything, it’s better to have more admins online to respond to problems than it is to have a select few admins who are unable to respond the majority of the time. Note that when I say I think that admins should be able to have fun, I don’t mean it in the sense that it is acceptable for them to abuse their power or misuse administrative commands. Administration in itself can be considered enjoyable, and many of the admins here consider it a hobby. Even if you were to put higher restrictions on the rank and make it much more difficult to earn, it would probably still be something that OPs would find fun. I don’t think it’s necessary to remove all incentive to become an admin. I only think it’s necessary to filter out admins who are nothing but toxic and contribute nothing but contempt and drama to the community. "That’s not to say that we shouldn’t strive for good quality admins, but the truth is, a volunteer job will always have some degree of fun to it, especially if it is for a game server." This does not make any sense - you're failing to differentiate need and have - if you're going to say that an adminstrative rank always will have some fun associated with it that does not negate the fact that we should still remove the 'fun' incentives, because, even according to your own logic, there will always be some "fun" associated with it. How does it make it less enjoyable to be an Admin, if the ops have the same 'fun' perks as Admins do? Yes, you can have fun as an Admin, but that "fun" should be the same kind of fun that any operator on TF can have. Admins shouldn't have a private world, Admins shouldn't have more WE access than ops, Admins shouldn't have access to /trail if ops can't etc. "There are a good handful of people here who believe that more admins is a negative thing, but I actually disagree." Have I ever said that this is a negative thing? In this very same thread I am asking Wilee why more Admins is a negative thing (Admins who actually adminstrate, mind you). I agree that we need Admins on 24/7 due to our server's all-op-nature. If we aren't on at every single hour of the day, and an hour goes by, the server could be down for hours on end, a griefer could wreck havoc and so on. What I am calling for are more - qualified- Admins. |
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Aug 2, 2019 5:41:18 GMT
I have rewritten this thread and also changed up the suggestion itself. I reset the poll to allow the new changes to sink in, and I want everybody to get a fresh taste of the suggestion, a lot of people didn't vote anyway.
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Video
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Post by Video on Aug 2, 2019 5:56:57 GMT
I have rewritten this thread and also changed up the suggestion itself. I reset the poll to allow the new changes to sink in, and I want everybody to get a fresh taste of the suggestion, a lot of people didn't vote anyway. Apologies for the quick derail, but what was the original suggestion that was replaced? |
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Aug 2, 2019 6:00:04 GMT
I have rewritten this thread and also changed up the suggestion itself. I reset the poll to allow the new changes to sink in, and I want everybody to get a fresh taste of the suggestion, a lot of people didn't vote anyway. Apologies for the quick derail, but what was the original suggestion that was replaced? Oh, the suggestion itself is in the quote, but I made several changes to the provisions of it. |
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Post by Andoodle on Aug 2, 2019 8:15:11 GMT
I wrote a long passage on this but the forum didn't like it and deleted everything. Splendid. The points I made basically boiled down to this:
1. I think the main problem I saw in my time (things may have changed, so feel free to correct me) was that there's a huge cultural difference between admins and OPs. The admin rank gets you into a clubhouse which the rest of the players can't even see, let alone participate in. This is good to some degree as it's good to have a friendly 'work environment' but everything which contributes to the admin subculture is something which doesn't contribute to the server's culture. Culture is what sets the server apart from any other, but if that culture for regular players is basically silence as the party's happening in a gated community, there's no reason to stay unless you plan on applying to be an admin and therefore getting yourself entry to the clubhouse. I reckon that if the culture for normal players gets more proactive and there are fewer fun features walled off for just admins (I've always been sceptical of the gated community which is the admin-only world) the influx of players trying to apply for the sake of letting the server realise its full potential will decrease and you'll be left with more applicants who want to administrate to keep the place clean.
2. Things like well-advertised building competitions could help inject a bit of culture into the server for regular players. These could have, for example, small rewards associated with them like a 'recognised builder' rank with a fancy title and slightly relaxed worldedit permissions and/or some sort of /cake command which operates like an unusual hat in TF2; it sets OPs apart from one another on the basis that they've contributed to the server. I'm at university at the moment and every society I'm in has a Social Secretary on the committee whose sole job it is to engage society members with that society's culture through things like organised pub trips or bowling trips.
3. I used to be a senior admin. I should not be able to waltz back into that title just because I know some of you from back in the day; I have no idea how the culture of the place has changed, let alone the practical differences of administrating (new commands and the like).
Please feel free to disagree, I'll be interested to hear why.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2019 15:42:39 GMT
I wrote a long passage on this but the forum didn't like it and deleted everything. Splendid. The points I made basically boiled down to this: 1. I think the main problem I saw in my time (things may have changed, so feel free to correct me) was that there's a huge cultural difference between admins and OPs. The admin rank gets you into a clubhouse which the rest of the players can't even see, let alone participate in. This is good to some degree as it's good to have a friendly 'work environment' but everything which contributes to the admin subculture is something which doesn't contribute to the server's culture. Culture is what sets the server apart from any other, but if that culture for regular players is basically silence as the party's happening in a gated community, there's no reason to stay unless you plan on applying to be an admin and therefore getting yourself entry to the clubhouse. I reckon that if the culture for normal players gets more proactive and there are fewer fun features walled off for just admins (I've always been sceptical of the gated community which is the admin-only world) the influx of players trying to apply for the sake of letting the server realise its full potential will decrease and you'll be left with more applicants who want to administrate to keep the place clean. 2. Things like well-advertised building competitions could help inject a bit of culture into the server for regular players. These could have, for example, small rewards associated with them like a 'recognised builder' rank with a fancy title and slightly relaxed worldedit permissions and/or some sort of /cake command which operates like an unusual hat in TF2; it sets OPs apart from one another on the basis that they've contributed to the server. I'm at university at the moment and every society I'm in has a Social Secretary on the committee whose sole job it is to engage society members with that society's culture through things like organised pub trips or bowling trips. 3. I used to be a senior admin. I should not be able to waltz back into that title just because I know some of you from back in the day; I have no idea how the culture of the place has changed, let alone the practical differences of administrating (new commands and the like). Please feel free to disagree, I'll be interested to hear why. Love the idea of competitions and your idea for rewards is also pretty neat. I would really like if a player would win a competition and they could get access to a command such as /trail - this way we don't have to remove any "Freedom" from the overall playerbase, but we can still allow for some minor upgrades. |
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