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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 25, 2019 19:03:32 GMT
I don’t feel anything is wrong with the current system, nor did I feel anything was wrong with the system mark initially established. I think that there will always be something to improve upon, and if you look into something hard enough, you will always find flaws. No matter how many restrictions we set on the admin system, we’d probably still end up with a few “problem admins” (as mark dubbed them) here and there. No admin is perfect, and some are more motivated and serious than others who take things lightly. At the end of the day, an admin is an admin. Even assuming the systems we’ve had so far are heavily flawed, we’ve ended up with a fairly large chunk of excellent admins that have impacted the server for the better. Your point doesn't really make much sense to me. You're saying that there is always something to improve upon, there's always going to be flaws, so therefore there's no use in trying to improve the system. All this is trying to do is treat admin as what it is: admin. We don't need a giant subculture of admins which is bigger than the actual community of members here, and this is trying to address that. The player base has been shrinking since 2015, a change has to come. |
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 25, 2019 19:04:32 GMT
I think we should maybe implement the many suggestions in this thread one at a time so it won't feel rushed and so we can implement this more thouroghly. I don't exactly like the fact of closing admin applications, but rather make it more difficult to be accepted. However, I really like the idea of admin promotion in this thread. It's a supply and demand system. When there is demand for admins, the applications are open and anybody can make an application and vote on the application. I'm honestly not sure how much better you can get than that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 19:08:37 GMT
Make a poll for each addition instead of bunching everything together into one large package.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 25, 2019 19:10:42 GMT
Make a poll for each addition instead of bunching everything together into one large package. You're forgetting that this is ProBoards and I can't make a poll for each of the 10 without making 10 unnecessary threads. I also think that all of them combined are necessary. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 19:26:38 GMT
Make a poll for each addition instead of bunching everything together into one large package. You're forgetting that this is ProBoards and I can't make a poll for each of the 10 without making 10 unnecessary threads. I also think that all of them combined are necessary. Then you're going to get nothing of it implemented. Just a tip. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 19:36:27 GMT
What is your actual reasoning behind closing apps? You don't really explain why the idea of many Admins is toxic - I still subscribe to the belief that we should try to have an Admin on every hour of the day, why? Because Total Freedom is not "Kanye Craft" - Total Freedom is a unique server wherein people are supposed to have operator capabilities, or in a broader term = more freedom than the average server. With this freedom there are gonig to be far, far worse and more rulebreakers than on "Kanye Craft" - griefers, spammers and crashers are not normal on a similar "kanye craft" server with the same amount of players. If you're wanting to keep players playing, then you have to combat these rulebreakers on the spot, otherwise people aren't going to play, because they don't have a playable server. You are not going to go an hour without finding either of these types of rulebreakers, which is just more justification for my position. Does this mean we should have 500 Admins? Not nessecarily, but I don't see any issues in having a fuckton of Admins, just as long as they don't have an incentive to becoming Admin other than being a volunteer that wants to better the server - if anything, when you remove the incentive, or the rewards, for becoming Admin. the number of Admins would naturally lessen, because t would actually be required that you Adminstrate actively, as opposed to
"Player joins the server and becomes an admin: This is the less ideal situation, and I think it's being promoted far more than it should be. When a player becomes an admin, you have one less player."
Your reasoning does not follow logically from your premise. Just because an op becomes a player doesn't mean you have one less player.
I love the idea of merging Admin world with a permanent op world
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 25, 2019 19:51:23 GMT
What is your actual reasoning behind closing apps? You don't really explain why the idea of many Admins is toxic - I still subscribe to the belief that we should try to have an Admin on every hour of the day, why? Because Total Freedom is not "Kanye Craft" - Total Freedom is a unique server wherein people are supposed to have operator capabilities, or in a broader term = more freedom than the average server. With this freedom there are gonig to be far, far worse and more rulebreakers than on "Kanye Craft" - griefers, spammers and crashers are not normal on a similar "kanye craft" server with the same amount of players. If you're wanting to keep players playing, then you have to combat these rulebreakers on the spot, otherwise people aren't going to play, because they don't have a playable server. You are not going to go an hour without finding either of these types of rulebreakers, which is just more justification for my position. Does this mean we should have 500 Admins? Not nessecarily, but I don't see any issues in having a fuckton of Admins, just as long as they don't have an incentive to becoming Admin other than being a volunteer that wants to better the server - if anything, when you remove the incentive, or the rewards, for becoming Admin. the number of Admins would naturally lessen, because t would actually be required that you Adminstrate actively, as opposed to "Player joins the server and becomes an admin: This is the less ideal situation, and I think it's being promoted far more than it should be. When a player becomes an admin, you have one less player." Your reasoning does not follow logically from your premise. Just because an op becomes a player doesn't mean you have one less player. I love the idea of merging Admin world with a permanent op world To reiterate, the idea isn't to just eliminate admins for the sake of eliminating admins, the idea is that we can have control over how many people have admin, who has admin, and the skill of the people with admin. If we want an admin on at a certain hour of the day, we can open applications and restrict them to people with the certain qualifications we need. The system I'm proposing will get you that dream of an admin on every hour of the day better than the system we've been relying on for the past few years which still hasn't delivered that worshipped result. I completely agree with you on the uniqueness of Total Freedom. I don't think the way to put it is to be "more like a normal server" which was one of the changes I made to the original post, because that will only take away that uniqueness and drive us downhill. I think that we should own that uniqueness and take some control over the insane admin system that we have and bring fun back to the actual players of this server and boost that player base, which is what I believe the idea proposals would help us accomplish. I think the point is that we need to establish a community of players, not just treating them as 'guests' until they finally achieve that admin rank. We should focus on keeping actual players as the majority of the server and not making every player who expresses a modicum of decency an admin. |
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Post by StevenNL2000 on Jul 25, 2019 20:14:09 GMT
To reiterate, the idea isn't to just eliminate admins for the sake of eliminating admins, the idea is that we can have control over how many people have admin, who has admin, and the skill of the people with admin. If we want an admin on at a certain hour of the day, we can open applications and restrict them to people with the certain qualifications we need. The system I'm proposing will get you that dream of an admin on every hour of the day better than the system we've been relying on for the past few years which still hasn't delivered that worshipped result. If we have been accepting all qualified admins up until now, shouldn't we already have achieved this if it was possible? How can taking a subset of the qualified admins increase the coverage? |
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Post by mychaeljkmax on Jul 25, 2019 20:21:58 GMT
I don’t feel anything is wrong with the current system, nor did I feel anything was wrong with the system mark initially established. I think that there will always be something to improve upon, and if you look into something hard enough, you will always find flaws. No matter how many restrictions we set on the admin system, we’d probably still end up with a few “problem admins” (as mark dubbed them) here and there. No admin is perfect, and some are more motivated and serious than others who take things lightly. At the end of the day, an admin is an admin. Even assuming the systems we’ve had so far are heavily flawed, we’ve ended up with a fairly large chunk of excellent admins that have impacted the server for the better. Your point doesn't really make much sense to me. You're saying that there is always something to improve upon, there's always going to be flaws, so therefore there's no use in trying to improve the system. All this is trying to do is treat admin as what it is: admin. We don't need a giant subculture of admins which is bigger than the actual community of members here, and this is trying to address that. The player base has been shrinking since 2015, a change has to come. You can always have one system that may be much more improved and smooth-sailing than the other, but regardless, no system will ever be perfect. I’m not claiming that our current system is flawless; however, I also don’t think it is as poorly managed as a large chunk of the community claims it to be. |
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 25, 2019 20:26:05 GMT
The system I'm proposing will get you that dream of an admin on every hour of the day better than the system we've been relying on for the past few years which still hasn't delivered that worshipped result. If we have been accepting all qualified admins up until now, shouldn't we already have achieved this if it was possible? How can taking a subset of the qualified admins increase the coverage? I'm tired so my wording isn't the best but the idea is quality over quantity. I'm not saying this would achieve that dream, I honestly don't think that we'll ever be able to achieve it if we haven't in the last 5 years. The point is, if there is demand for admins in a certain timezone, you open applications and be selective based on the wanted factors such as timezone. You rake in just the quality admins which are needed for the job, so that you don't have 10 admins online at prime time jacking off while in the needed time zones there's nobody on. The coverage could increase, it also may not increase, but at least you would only have what's needed and we need to boost the player base of this server by reducing the admin culture and stop revolving everything around "becoming an admin" which shouldn't be the point of the server. |
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 25, 2019 20:30:55 GMT
Your point doesn't really make much sense to me. You're saying that there is always something to improve upon, there's always going to be flaws, so therefore there's no use in trying to improve the system. All this is trying to do is treat admin as what it is: admin. We don't need a giant subculture of admins which is bigger than the actual community of members here, and this is trying to address that. The player base has been shrinking since 2015, a change has to come. You can always have one system that may be much more improved and smooth-sailing than the other, but regardless, no system will ever be perfect. I’m not claiming that our current system is flawless; however, I also don’t think it is as poorly managed as a large chunk of the community claims it to be. I understand what you're trying to say but I'm not trying to reach for the perfect solution here. I'm just trying to reach for a system which can greatly improve the server and set it on a road for prosperity more so than the current stagnating system is. You can't reject a more improved system just because the current system could be worse than it currently is and because the improved system isn't utterly perfect. |
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Post by mychaeljkmax on Jul 25, 2019 20:35:23 GMT
You can always have one system that may be much more improved and smooth-sailing than the other, but regardless, no system will ever be perfect. I’m not claiming that our current system is flawless; however, I also don’t think it is as poorly managed as a large chunk of the community claims it to be. I understand what you're trying to say but I'm not trying to reach for the perfect solution here. I'm just trying to reach for a system which can greatly improve the server and set it on a road for prosperity more so than the current stagnating system is. You can't reject a more improved system just because the current system could be worse than it currently is and because the improved system isn't utterly perfect. At that point it becomes a matter of philosophy. The philosophy that mark had about how to manage admins and quantity over quality was just fine in his eyes, and many admins supported this philosophy. On the other hand, there were many admins who were against it. Every system will be more well-suited to some groups of admins than others. While some admins might think we need major improvement, others might believe nothing needs to be changed. |
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 25, 2019 20:40:43 GMT
I understand what you're trying to say but I'm not trying to reach for the perfect solution here. I'm just trying to reach for a system which can greatly improve the server and set it on a road for prosperity more so than the current stagnating system is. You can't reject a more improved system just because the current system could be worse than it currently is and because the improved system isn't utterly perfect. At that point it becomes a matter of philosophy. The philosophy that mark had about how to manage admins and quantity over quality was just fine in his eyes, and many admins supported this philosophy. On the other hand, there were many admins who were against it. Every system will be more well-suited to some groups of admins than others. While some admins might think we need major improvement, others might believe nothing needs to be changed. It must suck to be them because this isn't about cuddling up to some admins and their own power interests, this is about building up the server and reestablishing a permanent player base. If somebody is an admin and they are personally profiting off of the current system where they climb up the ranks with no regard for the actual player base or long term future of this server, then they are part of the problem. |
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Post by mychaeljkmax on Jul 25, 2019 21:14:59 GMT
At that point it becomes a matter of philosophy. The philosophy that mark had about how to manage admins and quantity over quality was just fine in his eyes, and many admins supported this philosophy. On the other hand, there were many admins who were against it. Every system will be more well-suited to some groups of admins than others. While some admins might think we need major improvement, others might believe nothing needs to be changed. It must suck to be them because this isn't about cuddling up to some admins and their own power interests, this is about building up the server and reestablishing a permanent player base. If somebody is an admin and they are personally profiting off of the current system where they climb up the ranks with no regard for the actual player base or long term future of this server, then they are part of the problem. That can again become a matter of philosophy, because different admins have different viewpoints of their own of why the server’s playerbase has declined. Some admins feel the admin system is all to blame while others assume it’s because minecraft’s popularity as a whole has declined over the years, other platforms and games have gained attention, or even a combination of factors. I’m not taking any sides or stating an opinion of my own here, because I personally don’t know what I think in terms of why the player base has declined over the years as much as it has. I will say though that even with mark’s system in play (while Windows_ was running the server), there were some instances in 2017 and even 2018 where the server was nearly or completely full. I can’t claim to know what the source of the problem is, and it may very well be the admin system, but even so, not every admin will want to believe that, because, as you’ve mentioned, it might be at their own expense if they are simply in it for themselves. With that being said though, I still believe that there are admins with opposite philosophies to one another who still take the server’s best interests to heart. |
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 25, 2019 21:26:45 GMT
It must suck to be them because this isn't about cuddling up to some admins and their own power interests, this is about building up the server and reestablishing a permanent player base. If somebody is an admin and they are personally profiting off of the current system where they climb up the ranks with no regard for the actual player base or long term future of this server, then they are part of the problem. That can again become a matter of philosophy, because different admins have different viewpoints of their own of why the server’s playerbase has declined. Some admins feel the admin system is all to blame while others assume it’s because minecraft’s popularity as a whole has declined over the years, other platforms and games have gained attention, or even a combination of factors. I’m not taking any sides or stating an opinion of my own here, because I personally don’t know what I think in terms of why the player base has declined over the years as much as it has. I will say though that even with mark’s system in play (while Windows_ was running the server), there were some instances in 2017 and even 2018 where the server was nearly or completely full. I can’t claim to know what the source of the problem is, and it may very well be the admin system, but even so, not every admin will want to believe that, because, as you’ve mentioned, it might be at their own expense if they are simply in it for themselves. With that being said though, I still believe that there are admins who share different philosophies who still take the server’s best interests at heart. I'm not trying to claim that it's just "the admin system", but I also refuse to believe that it's as simple as "Minecraft isn't popular anymore" because that's an inaccurate trivialization of the problem. I think the admin culture that has formed over many years is a major problem but not 'the' problem. The bottom line here is if we're going to boost the player base, we can't keep the current broken system around where everybody is only interested in boosting their own rank. We need to abolish the admin culture which perpetuates a major divide between the admins and the rest of the players. |
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