elmon
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Post by elmon on May 12, 2020 17:56:06 GMT
Sometimes vanishing is beneficial for certain rulebreakers that only really reveal themselves when they think admins aren't on (it sends a false leave message). It's not something I like to use for extended periods of time, I mainly use gmsp for that, but it is useful situationally. That feels sorta ethically sketch... Think in the law that's 'Entrapment'... I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, I'm just saying I think it makes more sense for the handful of times it might be beneficial, I don't think those benefits so far sound like they are that meaningful... We don't need to over-complicate it, rulebreakers are rulebreakers and in my opinion if they do it only when admins are offline that makes them worse. Also, gamemode spectator could also fall under entrapment if you make them think you're not around so they grief or whatever.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on May 12, 2020 18:06:19 GMT
That feels sorta ethically sketch... Think in the law that's 'Entrapment'... I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, I'm just saying I think it makes more sense for the handful of times it might be beneficial, I don't think those benefits so far sound like they are that meaningful... We don't need to over-complicate it, rulebreakers are rulebreakers and in my opinion if they do it only when admins are offline that makes them worse. Also, gamemode spectator could also fall under entrapment if you make them think you're not around so they grief or whatever. While I do partially agree I think there's a difference between tricking someone into thinking there are no admins online and just being invisible... As I say, I might not be the right answer here, but I'd personally rather remove extra bespoke functionality if something natively works 99% of the time, this use case feels like more of an edge case...
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Post by Telesphoreo on May 12, 2020 18:53:49 GMT
I think we should ditch TFM's vanish and use SuperVanish now that we have permission nodes in TFM. We use SuperVanish on SMP and it works well.
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StevenNL2000
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Post by StevenNL2000 on May 12, 2020 20:37:58 GMT
Sometimes vanishing is beneficial for certain rulebreakers that only really reveal themselves when they think admins aren't on (it sends a false leave message). It's not something I like to use for extended periods of time, I mainly use gmsp for that, but it is useful situationally. That feels sorta ethically sketch... Think in the law that's 'Entrapment'... I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, I'm just saying I think it makes more sense for the handful of times it might be beneficial, I don't think those benefits so far sound like they are that meaningful... That's a common mistake: providing an opportunity to commit a crime is not entrapment if a normally law-abiding person wouldn't make use of it. Maybe the fake leave messages are a bit over the top, but you've been able to sneakily monitor the server through Telnet since forever and no one has ever made the same complaint about that.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on May 12, 2020 20:46:06 GMT
That feels sorta ethically sketch... Think in the law that's 'Entrapment'... I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, I'm just saying I think it makes more sense for the handful of times it might be beneficial, I don't think those benefits so far sound like they are that meaningful... That's a common mistake: providing an opportunity to commit a crime is not entrapment if a normally law-abiding person wouldn't make use of it. Maybe the fake leave messages are a bit over the top, but you've been able to sneakily monitor the server through Telnet since forever and no one has ever made the same complaint about that. Would it necessarily be a bad idea to implement telnet login messages though? It would be extremely easy to add.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on May 13, 2020 8:47:34 GMT
That feels sorta ethically sketch... Think in the law that's 'Entrapment'... I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, I'm just saying I think it makes more sense for the handful of times it might be beneficial, I don't think those benefits so far sound like they are that meaningful... That's a common mistake: providing an opportunity to commit a crime is not entrapment if a normally law-abiding person wouldn't make use of it. Maybe the fake leave messages are a bit over the top, but you've been able to sneakily monitor the server through Telnet since forever and no one has ever made the same complaint about that. Telnet though in reality is no different to if you were to look through the logs retroactively (Which used to happen a lot), and Telnet tbf is a whole different topic I want to talk to. I think my point is if you "Leave the server" and then go snooping on players, it feels damn right unethical, like I don't think there's a need for it... What I'm trying to get to is do we actually need a /vanish command in the first place? Feels like it's benefits are pretty limited compared to spectator mode, just feels like we're patching a problem which we could avoid entirely, that's sorta the point I'm trying to make.
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elmon
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Fix /near
May 13, 2020 9:17:17 GMT
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Post by elmon on May 13, 2020 9:17:17 GMT
That's a common mistake: providing an opportunity to commit a crime is not entrapment if a normally law-abiding person wouldn't make use of it. Maybe the fake leave messages are a bit over the top, but you've been able to sneakily monitor the server through Telnet since forever and no one has ever made the same complaint about that. Telnet though in reality is no different to if you were to look through the logs retroactively (Which used to happen a lot), and Telnet tbf is a whole different topic I want to talk to. I think my point is if you "Leave the server" and then go snooping on players, it feels damn right unethical, like I don't think there's a need for it... What I'm trying to get to is do we actually need a /vanish command in the first place? Feels like it's benefits are pretty limited compared to spectator mode, just feels like we're patching a problem which we could avoid entirely, that's sorta the point I'm trying to make. I don't understand why were involving ethics of invasion of privacy and entrapment in the monitoring of users of a Minecraft server. These tools all help us catch rulebreakers and therefore should be kept in the game? I don't see the point in removing them there is nothing fundementally wrong with watching a player through telnet.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on May 13, 2020 10:33:44 GMT
Telnet though in reality is no different to if you were to look through the logs retroactively (Which used to happen a lot), and Telnet tbf is a whole different topic I want to talk to. I think my point is if you "Leave the server" and then go snooping on players, it feels damn right unethical, like I don't think there's a need for it... What I'm trying to get to is do we actually need a /vanish command in the first place? Feels like it's benefits are pretty limited compared to spectator mode, just feels like we're patching a problem which we could avoid entirely, that's sorta the point I'm trying to make. I don't understand why were involving ethics of invasion of privacy and entrapment in the monitoring of users of a Minecraft server. These tools all help us catch rulebreakers and therefore should be kept in the game? I don't see the point in removing them there is nothing fundementally wrong with watching a player through telnet. The point is we're creating bespoke functionality to do pretty much the same thing as something else all so people can snoop slightly better... It feels like we're over-engineering a solution for something that is just ethically wrong in general... Just feels like a waste of time.
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tozzit
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Post by tozzit on May 13, 2020 11:32:33 GMT
I don't understand why were involving ethics of invasion of privacy and entrapment in the monitoring of users of a Minecraft server. These tools all help us catch rulebreakers and therefore should be kept in the game? I don't see the point in removing them there is nothing fundementally wrong with watching a player through telnet. The point is we're creating bespoke functionality to do pretty much the same thing as something else all so people can snoop slightly better... It feels like we're over-engineering a solution for something that is just ethically wrong in general... Just feels like a waste of time. How is it ethically wrong at all? Think of it like this - People often use landlines when casing a joint to find out if people are in - If you answer your phone every time the phone rings and youre in - the robber knows that if he calls and you dont answer that youre not in and now would be the perfect time to commit a robbery, If you however dont answer the phone ever, the robber couldnt know if you are in or not. Case in point and applies to a vanish - If the griefer knows you are always giving him the correct information on whether youre on or not he would know when was the time to grief. Obviously analogys arent perfect, but if this applies to vanish for you - why isnt invis banned or gmsp, why not let the griefers know we are watching them?
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on May 13, 2020 14:48:15 GMT
The point is we're creating bespoke functionality to do pretty much the same thing as something else all so people can snoop slightly better... It feels like we're over-engineering a solution for something that is just ethically wrong in general... Just feels like a waste of time. How is it ethically wrong at all? Think of it like this - People often use landlines when casing a joint to find out if people are in - If you answer your phone every time the phone rings and youre in - the robber knows that if he calls and you dont answer that youre not in and now would be the perfect time to commit a robbery, If you however dont answer the phone ever, the robber couldnt know if you are in or not. Case in point and applies to a vanish - If the griefer knows you are always giving him the correct information on whether youre on or not he would know when was the time to grief. Obviously analogys arent perfect, but if this applies to vanish for you - why isnt invis banned or gmsp, why not let the griefers know we are watching them? My point that I have tried (And probably failed to make as there were other points I was trying to use to back it up) is do we Actually need this? If Spectator mode works 99% of the time we don't need to have a command that re-implements it with the extra 1%... It just feels like a waste of effort if this is the only benefit...
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elmon
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Post by elmon on May 13, 2020 14:50:21 GMT
How is it ethically wrong at all? Think of it like this - People often use landlines when casing a joint to find out if people are in - If you answer your phone every time the phone rings and youre in - the robber knows that if he calls and you dont answer that youre not in and now would be the perfect time to commit a robbery, If you however dont answer the phone ever, the robber couldnt know if you are in or not. Case in point and applies to a vanish - If the griefer knows you are always giving him the correct information on whether youre on or not he would know when was the time to grief. Obviously analogys arent perfect, but if this applies to vanish for you - why isnt invis banned or gmsp, why not let the griefers know we are watching them? My point that I have tried (And probably failed to make as there were other points I was trying to use to back it up) is do we Actually need this? If Spectator mode works 99% of the time we don't need to have a command that re-implements it with the extra 1%... It just feels like a waste of effort if this is the only benefit... Whether or not I agree with you, this doesn't really make a difference as there is no point in removing it from TFM seeing as we already have it and it adds extra functionality, it does less harm to keep it in.
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Post by DragonSlayer2189 on May 13, 2020 14:55:32 GMT
i reported this in the megathread seth is trying to fix it but its very broken
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on May 13, 2020 14:59:05 GMT
My point that I have tried (And probably failed to make as there were other points I was trying to use to back it up) is do we Actually need this? If Spectator mode works 99% of the time we don't need to have a command that re-implements it with the extra 1%... It just feels like a waste of effort if this is the only benefit... Whether or not I agree with you, this doesn't really make a difference as there is no point in removing it from TFM seeing as we already have it and it adds extra functionality, it does less harm to keep it in. It absolutely does... The less code your maintaining the more time developers have to work on stuff that adds actual value... Maintaining code just keeps the lights on, if you can retire chunks of functionality because Minecraft has it natively that's an absolute win... Then you speed up improvements and updates, and have more capacity to work on new features. Imagine if we didn't have to maintain plugins at all, our upgrades would be near instant, we just have to work towards that as best we can and removing commands like this that break other functionality is great. Though to be honest, my bigger point is I think it's a waste of time fixing /near - That is the TLDR of what my argument here is.
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elmon
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Fix /near
May 13, 2020 15:03:19 GMT
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Post by elmon on May 13, 2020 15:03:19 GMT
Though to be honest, my bigger point is I think it's a waste of time fixing /near - That is the TLDR of what my argument here is. /near is broken for admins in general, not just for vanished admins. So it needs fixing either way.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on May 13, 2020 15:10:27 GMT
Though to be honest, my bigger point is I think it's a waste of time fixing /near - That is the TLDR of what my argument here is. /near is broken for admins in general, not just for vanished admins. So it needs fixing either way. Is /near not a vanilla essentials command though? Why not just revert to whatever comes out the box...
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