Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2019 16:31:03 GMT
The poll will lock on 17th of July
KINDLY READ THIS THREAD BEFORE VOTING IF YOU CAN: totalfreedom.boards.net/thread/64451/add-master-builder-chat
To put it very simply:
I want to add an MB Chat that would function in very much the same way as Admin Chat. Why do I want this? Well because I want to make it easier to communicate as a team for MBs. right not the only method of communicating is general chat or /msg, but those are not really viable options, why? Because it's not easy to see when an MB is talking in chat and we also flood the chat if we speak in general chat. if we were to make an MB chat we would A) Flood the chat with less spam. I categorize MB-speak as "spam" because you have to be present and have the context in order to understand what we're talking about. I highly doubt the average player cares much to see messages such as "make it green", "use brush 3" and so on. B) We would also make it easier to communicate as a team.
I don’t think I made it very clear what I was trying to get implemented in the last thread, and the last thread also didn’t have a poll so I will make one now. The last thread turned into a chaotic shitfest filled with utter nonsense by people derailing the talk to Admin perks and equating MB to Admin. If you think this is thread is made because I am a sore loser, then ok. This a poll on whether or not people are for or against the idea of an MB-chat which would be the MB-version of Admin Chat.
I have also spoken to the MBs in our private chat, and all the ones that have responded are pro my suggestion, so I think that should also be taken into account.
I will mention the people whom I am going to respond so they can see my responses. StevenNL2000 Polaris Seltzeris !?????? ?? ??? ????? Fluffasaurus_Rex mychaeljkmax . Now to responded to the commenst on the last thread
I disagree with this. I'm thinking in the opposite direction of this which isn't to make master builders further separate from being a regular member, but closer to being a regular member. Rather, I feel like regular members should have access to the perks you get of being a master builder.
I think that we should see towards regular members having more freedom & protection when it comes to building. Only admins & master builders get these perks, and that's one major reason why we have redundant amounts of people that feel a compulsive need to apply for admin or master builder. Master builder is great as a rank for people that are extraordinary, but we need to make being a regular member enjoyable.
For a master builder chat, I think it would be pretty redundant.
This is an example of equating MB to Admin. Admin is a police rank, not meant to be filled with perks, but instead meant as a voluntary job. The opposite is true for MB – people should be incentivized to aspire to become MBs, which is exactly why it is (and should be) filled with perks and unique traits such as a private museum-world, custom plugins and additional privileges like more WE-access, or other creative-plugins that help the builder build creatively. So it’s absolutely absurd to say that MBs should be more like regular players, unless you’re completely against the idea of a rank hierarchy, but then let’s go ahead and remove Telnets, Seniors and executives while we’re at it. I said this in the private MB chat: the original intention with the MB title was to recognize the skill and talent of creative minds on Total Freedom and give them additions tools to realize their creative ideas on Total Freedom. When you say, “Rather, I feel like regular members should have access to the perks you get of being a master builder.”, then you need to explain what the point is in having a -RANK- called Master Builder. Either you have it as a rank or as an honourary title. And I said this already, but you’re not going to give creative plugins to all players without having the server crashing constantly. Either you give the full-plugin to a select group of people on the server, or you give it to none at all. I would prefer the first option.
“I think that we should see towards regular members having more freedom & protection when it comes to building”
This has nothing to do with the OP, so to bring this up is only you derailing the conversation in another unrelated direction. Just because you have a hard-on for “NO INCENTIVES FOR GETTING ADMIN”, does not mean you should bring the same mindset & logic to MBs. The MB Chat is purely meant as another form of communication between Master Builders so we don’t flood the general chat with spammy messages, nothing more, nothing less.
“Master builder is great as a rank for people that are extraordinary, but we need to make being a regular member enjoyable.”
Good point….But it has nothing to do with what I said at all. Care to explain why making a private chat for a rank makes it less “enjoyable” for the average player on Total Freedom? Hint: It doesn’t, it only makes it better, because the chat isn’t flooded with shitty build-spam. You treat it as though MB chat will end up like Admin Chat – guess what? We’re MAX 2-4 MBs active on the server at once, why would these 2-4 people want to only speak to those people? The reason why the Admin Chat is flooded with non-admin talk is because we have 2-10 Admins only at once, which means that Admins can speak to their friends in a private chat, and they’re not just speaking to 1 other person online. .
“For a master builder chat, I think it would be pretty redundant.”
And this is what you call non-substantive criticism. Tell me why it would be redundant, because so far you haven’t. You haven’t even addressed -ANY- of the things that I said it would be useful for. Stop derailing my thread.
Can you explain how messages about building projects on the server are unrelated to messages about the server?Yes I can. I apologize for not wording this better in my original post. Unrelated was not the right word to use, but it is right to say that the average player would rather not be spammed with messages that make no sense to them, when you consider the fact that almost everything you say when you’re building requires you to have the context. It requires that you’re actually present at the build to understand what you’re talking about. It brings no further enjoyment to the normal player to see countless messages like, “make it gray”, “add stones” and alike.
This addition would also make it much, much easier to communicate as a whole as a team. If there is a noticeable colour with the text “MBCHAT” next to all messages will make it much easier to spot any messages related to what you’re building. It’s often that I miss messages in chat by other MBs because I simply can’t spot them, but if you were to do something similar to the Admin Chat, you would.
But doesn't every other group of players that wants to communicate with each other have the exact same problem?
Except their rank (op) does not require active communication such as Admins and MBs do. I don’t really understand why you’re treating MBs as average players when they’re not. Our rank requires communication when we’re doing collaborative projects, thus having a chat window where it’s clear when an MB is chatting would make it so much easier to communicate with other MBs.
Imagine there are 10 players on the server: a group of 3 OPs playing together, another group of 4 OPs playing together, and 3 master builders. You separate the master builders from the other OPs, and say: "The 7 players in the main chat now see fewer irrelevant messages.". I agree with that. But now I put everyone back together and separate the group of 3 OPs from the others. Then I could say: "The 7 players in the main chat now see fewer irrelevant messages.", and I would be just as correct as you were.
In other words, I'm trying to figure out what makes master builders special in this regard.
You would… If you were to go off my unclear point that I was trying to convey. What makes MBs special in this regard is the fact that they -Need- to communicate in order to build collectively. Regular players don’t need a separate chat, because they have the ability to /msg. “Oh but Miwo, MBs can /msg too!!!”, ye, but we could also make it far easier to communicate as a group by making it a private chat and making it clear when an MB is talking…Just like the Admin Chat (for a full response see my comment to Cookie123)
The idea that we simply cannot have protection or freedom without locking it off to certain people is absurd. We can have a master builder world for building maps that will actually be used by the server, but my point is that we should be able to have a regular world where people can build casually. If your argument is that we can't have that, then we have a problem here that goes farther than master builders.
The logic does work in this instance. The adminworld for one thing, and the fact that admins can bypass restrictions among everything else they can do. They're pretty much the spotlight of the server, and if somebody becomes an admin they would be able to ban the griefers themselves. We need to properly address the reason why people *want* the ranks master builder and admin. The point should be to make it enjoyable to be a regular member. Is it such a horrifying point to make that we should make it a nice experience to be a regular player on this fucking server?
And you’re derailing the thread once again. This has nothing to do with Admins and their perks, so stop treating the thread as such. Let me make this abundantly clear for you: MASTER BUILDERS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ADMINS – STOP TALKING ABOUT THE MB WORLD, STOP TALKING ABOUT PROTECTION AND FREEDOM, STOP TALKING ABOUT ADMIN WORDL, STOP TALKING ABOUT ENJOYMENT FOR THE AVERAGE PLAYER. NOTHING YOU JUST SAID HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE OP. Address my original suggestion which was to add MB chat instead of talking out of your rear.
this may have been said before on a different thread, i haven't been active on forums lately
when i was an admin, one of the things i noticed was that more often than not, admin chat was used as a personal group chat of friends rather than a chat about administration. in my opinion, this is one of the things that increases the bridge between admins and ops. whether or not a master builder chat should be added should be based off of that; will it actually be used for building, or will it have the same fate as admin chat and increase the bridge between ranked users and ops?This is a valid concern and I appreciate the comment. To quote myself from earlier, “Care to explain why making a private chat for a rank makes it less “enjoyable” for the average player on Total Freedom? Hint: It doesn’t, it only makes it better, because the chat isn’t flooded with shitty build-spam. You treat it as though MB chat will end up like Admin Chat – guess what? We’re MAX 2-4 MBs active on the server at once, why would these 2-4 people want to only speak to those people? The reason why the Admin Chat is flooded with non-admin talk is because we have 2-10 Admins only at once, which means that Admins can speak to their friends in a private chat, and they’re not just speaking to 1 other person online. “
Even if I did give you the point that it could be used for unrelated chat, then we could simply mitigate this by implementing the suggestion I made in your thread: “remove the toggle-option for /o and have it so that every Admin Chat message must start with /o <Message>” – make it so that the only way you could talk in MB chat would be to type /MC before you message (/MC <Message>).
First off, I don't know how what I said implied that you are trying to worsen the experience of the average player. You aren't trying to worsen it, but this also isn't enhancing it because most players happen to not be master builders. The point that I was trying to make is that the focus for us improving the server right now should be on regular, rank-less players, not master builders. I am 100% for master builders having the perks that they need to be special benefits to the server, such as a world that they could use to create maps that are used by the server. You may say that isn't being done right now, and I agree with you that it is a problem, so whoever leads the master builders should be working on resolving that.
The point is that I simply think that we should work towards getting regular players access to things such as protection, and not giving them the impression of "I'm at the lowest rank on this server, all these other people have these ranks where they get more perks, I'm going to do whatever it takes to get a higher rank". Because I don't think Total Freedom needs to be a place where the only point in people being on the server is to get a "higher rank", I don't think this has ever been explicitly stated as the intention of this server by Mark or any other owner for that matter, so let's resolve that problem and make people actually enjoy the server without needing a rank. If your argument is that there is nothing we can do to make the server interesting without it revolving around people going through the rank ladder, then I think that is a massive gaping problem.
“You aren't trying to worsen it, but this also isn't enhancing it because most players happen to not be master builders.”
And? Just because not many have the title does not mean we can improve it. You argument doesn’t make any sense. And you’re also doing it again – derailing the thread.
“The point that I was trying to make is that the focus for us improving the server right now should be on regular, rank-less players, not master builders”
This is a false dichotomy. You don’t think we can improve more than one thing at once? Jeez, no wonder nothing gets done in this community if that’s the case.
“I am 100% for master builders having the perks that they need to be special benefits to the server, such as a world that they could use to create maps that are used by the server.”
Derailing… You’re also condradicting yourself, because you said this before: “I'm thinking in the opposite direction of this which isn't to make master builders further separate from being a regular member, but closer to being a regular member. Rather, I feel like regular members should have access to the perks you get of being a master builder.” Are you for MBs having perks or against? (Kindly don’t answer that, because I don’t want you to derail the thread again)
“so whoever leads the master builders should be working on resolving that.”
…… ok
“The point is that I simply think that we should work towards getting regular players access to things such as protection, and not giving them the impression of "I'm at the lowest rank on this server, all these other people have these ranks where they get more perks, I'm going to do whatever it takes to get a higher rank".”
I think our philosophies completely differ. I am of the thinking that if you give the player something to strive for that would mean they would want to stay on the server. Does this mean that the moment you join Total Freedom you should have jack shit for perks? No, but you shouldn’t be able to make drastic changes to the server that would worsen the experience of everyone else. Before you misconstrue what I am saying: no, I am not for removing World Edit or pro-restrictions that are set on World edit. I think the restrictions that are set on World Edit are far too much, and it completely ruins World edit for the average player. But don’t respond, because I still don’t want to have a completely unrelated discussion on a thread about adding MB Chat.
I think this talk about "bridging the gap between ops and admins" has nothing to do with this idea. Being an admin requires literally no skills whatsoever. Being able to build actually nice things requires at least some skill, concentration and cooperation.
I want to suck your ass Fluff. Love u.
I object. One of the main reasons why we have admin chat is so that admins, if need be, can discuss sensitive or security related matters in private without the risk of information being disclosed to potentially threatening OPs.
There is no security related reason as to why master builders shouldn’t discuss everything they need to via standard chat. If the only really genuine concern is that players might become annoyed or feel that they are being spammed with messages that are “irrelevant” to the server, I highly doubt that this will end up being any sort of an issue.Literally everything you said can be said about MBs…. We need to communicate build-related matters in private so we don’t spam the chat and so that we can’t communicate effectively. Just because there is no security-related reason as to why we should have MB chat does not negate the fact that it would indeed be a very useful addition to MBs, which itself is proven by the fact that I have gotten -ZERO- objections from any MBs.
“If the only really genuine concern is that players might become annoyed or feel that they are being spammed with messages that are “irrelevant” to the server, I highly doubt that this will end up being any sort of an issue.”
This entire quote was made because I did not convey my suggestion properly. I apologize for not making it more clear as to why I wanted MB chat. I hope my clarifications in this post have at least given you a new insight to my suggestion.
KINDLY READ THIS THREAD BEFORE VOTING IF YOU CAN: totalfreedom.boards.net/thread/64451/add-master-builder-chat
To put it very simply:
I want to add an MB Chat that would function in very much the same way as Admin Chat. Why do I want this? Well because I want to make it easier to communicate as a team for MBs. right not the only method of communicating is general chat or /msg, but those are not really viable options, why? Because it's not easy to see when an MB is talking in chat and we also flood the chat if we speak in general chat. if we were to make an MB chat we would A) Flood the chat with less spam. I categorize MB-speak as "spam" because you have to be present and have the context in order to understand what we're talking about. I highly doubt the average player cares much to see messages such as "make it green", "use brush 3" and so on. B) We would also make it easier to communicate as a team.
I don’t think I made it very clear what I was trying to get implemented in the last thread, and the last thread also didn’t have a poll so I will make one now. The last thread turned into a chaotic shitfest filled with utter nonsense by people derailing the talk to Admin perks and equating MB to Admin. If you think this is thread is made because I am a sore loser, then ok. This a poll on whether or not people are for or against the idea of an MB-chat which would be the MB-version of Admin Chat.
I have also spoken to the MBs in our private chat, and all the ones that have responded are pro my suggestion, so I think that should also be taken into account.
I will mention the people whom I am going to respond so they can see my responses. StevenNL2000 Polaris Seltzeris !?????? ?? ??? ????? Fluffasaurus_Rex mychaeljkmax . Now to responded to the commenst on the last thread
I think that we should see towards regular members having more freedom & protection when it comes to building. Only admins & master builders get these perks, and that's one major reason why we have redundant amounts of people that feel a compulsive need to apply for admin or master builder. Master builder is great as a rank for people that are extraordinary, but we need to make being a regular member enjoyable.
For a master builder chat, I think it would be pretty redundant.
This is an example of equating MB to Admin. Admin is a police rank, not meant to be filled with perks, but instead meant as a voluntary job. The opposite is true for MB – people should be incentivized to aspire to become MBs, which is exactly why it is (and should be) filled with perks and unique traits such as a private museum-world, custom plugins and additional privileges like more WE-access, or other creative-plugins that help the builder build creatively. So it’s absolutely absurd to say that MBs should be more like regular players, unless you’re completely against the idea of a rank hierarchy, but then let’s go ahead and remove Telnets, Seniors and executives while we’re at it. I said this in the private MB chat: the original intention with the MB title was to recognize the skill and talent of creative minds on Total Freedom and give them additions tools to realize their creative ideas on Total Freedom. When you say, “Rather, I feel like regular members should have access to the perks you get of being a master builder.”, then you need to explain what the point is in having a -RANK- called Master Builder. Either you have it as a rank or as an honourary title. And I said this already, but you’re not going to give creative plugins to all players without having the server crashing constantly. Either you give the full-plugin to a select group of people on the server, or you give it to none at all. I would prefer the first option.
“I think that we should see towards regular members having more freedom & protection when it comes to building”
This has nothing to do with the OP, so to bring this up is only you derailing the conversation in another unrelated direction. Just because you have a hard-on for “NO INCENTIVES FOR GETTING ADMIN”, does not mean you should bring the same mindset & logic to MBs. The MB Chat is purely meant as another form of communication between Master Builders so we don’t flood the general chat with spammy messages, nothing more, nothing less.
“Master builder is great as a rank for people that are extraordinary, but we need to make being a regular member enjoyable.”
Good point….But it has nothing to do with what I said at all. Care to explain why making a private chat for a rank makes it less “enjoyable” for the average player on Total Freedom? Hint: It doesn’t, it only makes it better, because the chat isn’t flooded with shitty build-spam. You treat it as though MB chat will end up like Admin Chat – guess what? We’re MAX 2-4 MBs active on the server at once, why would these 2-4 people want to only speak to those people? The reason why the Admin Chat is flooded with non-admin talk is because we have 2-10 Admins only at once, which means that Admins can speak to their friends in a private chat, and they’re not just speaking to 1 other person online. .
“For a master builder chat, I think it would be pretty redundant.”
And this is what you call non-substantive criticism. Tell me why it would be redundant, because so far you haven’t. You haven’t even addressed -ANY- of the things that I said it would be useful for. Stop derailing my thread.
This addition would also make it much, much easier to communicate as a whole as a team. If there is a noticeable colour with the text “MBCHAT” next to all messages will make it much easier to spot any messages related to what you’re building. It’s often that I miss messages in chat by other MBs because I simply can’t spot them, but if you were to do something similar to the Admin Chat, you would.
Jul 12, 2019 19:53:57 GMT @stevennl2000 said:
But doesn't every other group of players that wants to communicate with each other have the exact same problem?
Except their rank (op) does not require active communication such as Admins and MBs do. I don’t really understand why you’re treating MBs as average players when they’re not. Our rank requires communication when we’re doing collaborative projects, thus having a chat window where it’s clear when an MB is chatting would make it so much easier to communicate with other MBs.
In other words, I'm trying to figure out what makes master builders special in this regard.
The logic does work in this instance. The adminworld for one thing, and the fact that admins can bypass restrictions among everything else they can do. They're pretty much the spotlight of the server, and if somebody becomes an admin they would be able to ban the griefers themselves. We need to properly address the reason why people *want* the ranks master builder and admin. The point should be to make it enjoyable to be a regular member. Is it such a horrifying point to make that we should make it a nice experience to be a regular player on this fucking server?
when i was an admin, one of the things i noticed was that more often than not, admin chat was used as a personal group chat of friends rather than a chat about administration. in my opinion, this is one of the things that increases the bridge between admins and ops. whether or not a master builder chat should be added should be based off of that; will it actually be used for building, or will it have the same fate as admin chat and increase the bridge between ranked users and ops?
Even if I did give you the point that it could be used for unrelated chat, then we could simply mitigate this by implementing the suggestion I made in your thread: “remove the toggle-option for /o and have it so that every Admin Chat message must start with /o <Message>” – make it so that the only way you could talk in MB chat would be to type /MC before you message (/MC <Message>).
The point is that I simply think that we should work towards getting regular players access to things such as protection, and not giving them the impression of "I'm at the lowest rank on this server, all these other people have these ranks where they get more perks, I'm going to do whatever it takes to get a higher rank". Because I don't think Total Freedom needs to be a place where the only point in people being on the server is to get a "higher rank", I don't think this has ever been explicitly stated as the intention of this server by Mark or any other owner for that matter, so let's resolve that problem and make people actually enjoy the server without needing a rank. If your argument is that there is nothing we can do to make the server interesting without it revolving around people going through the rank ladder, then I think that is a massive gaping problem.
And? Just because not many have the title does not mean we can improve it. You argument doesn’t make any sense. And you’re also doing it again – derailing the thread.
“The point that I was trying to make is that the focus for us improving the server right now should be on regular, rank-less players, not master builders”
This is a false dichotomy. You don’t think we can improve more than one thing at once? Jeez, no wonder nothing gets done in this community if that’s the case.
“I am 100% for master builders having the perks that they need to be special benefits to the server, such as a world that they could use to create maps that are used by the server.”
Derailing… You’re also condradicting yourself, because you said this before: “I'm thinking in the opposite direction of this which isn't to make master builders further separate from being a regular member, but closer to being a regular member. Rather, I feel like regular members should have access to the perks you get of being a master builder.” Are you for MBs having perks or against? (Kindly don’t answer that, because I don’t want you to derail the thread again)
“so whoever leads the master builders should be working on resolving that.”
…… ok
“The point is that I simply think that we should work towards getting regular players access to things such as protection, and not giving them the impression of "I'm at the lowest rank on this server, all these other people have these ranks where they get more perks, I'm going to do whatever it takes to get a higher rank".”
I think our philosophies completely differ. I am of the thinking that if you give the player something to strive for that would mean they would want to stay on the server. Does this mean that the moment you join Total Freedom you should have jack shit for perks? No, but you shouldn’t be able to make drastic changes to the server that would worsen the experience of everyone else. Before you misconstrue what I am saying: no, I am not for removing World Edit or pro-restrictions that are set on World edit. I think the restrictions that are set on World Edit are far too much, and it completely ruins World edit for the average player. But don’t respond, because I still don’t want to have a completely unrelated discussion on a thread about adding MB Chat.
I want to suck your ass Fluff. Love u.
There is no security related reason as to why master builders shouldn’t discuss everything they need to via standard chat. If the only really genuine concern is that players might become annoyed or feel that they are being spammed with messages that are “irrelevant” to the server, I highly doubt that this will end up being any sort of an issue.
“If the only really genuine concern is that players might become annoyed or feel that they are being spammed with messages that are “irrelevant” to the server, I highly doubt that this will end up being any sort of an issue.”
This entire quote was made because I did not convey my suggestion properly. I apologize for not making it more clear as to why I wanted MB chat. I hope my clarifications in this post have at least given you a new insight to my suggestion.
