Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 0:49:05 GMT
1. Approx date and time you suspended the admin.
Five to ten minutes before posting this.
2. Why you suspended the admin - include relevant log entries.
The administrator I suspended, Lucas , I caught caging another administrator and I first warned them to stop. After they made a request to elaborate why they shouldn't cage other admins, this admin insisted that I was in the wrong for telling them not to and that it was okay because they were 'just playing around'. After I explained myself further and told them not to do it again, they began touting how they didn't have to do what I said and that I "wasn't the boss of them" and that they "didn't give a rat's ass" or something along those lines and I finally suspended them for delinquent tomfoolery, abuse of commands (if you want to call it that), and disrespect towards me. Below is log evidence.
[415/191109:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [SA] <Mnpn> suspension for pigmask
[0415/191112:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [SA] <Mnpn> gmc pvper
[0415/191114:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] rovertpug - De-opping Mnpn
[0415/191127:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] Pigmask - Caging Mnpn in Pigmask
[0415/191402:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Mnpn [SA]: irix i think you should suspend pigmask
[0415/191433:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Provide me with log evidence and I'll look at it
[0415/191441:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: If you're trying to make a joke, it's not funny
[0415/191808:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] Pigmask - Caging Mnpn
[0415/191820:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Pig, what the hell are you doing
[0415/191828:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: i honestly dont know
[0415/191832:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Mnpn [SA]: he is abusing me
[0415/191842:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Oh, so you must not be trusted with this rank if you have no control over yourself
[0415/191853:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: it's just a prank bro
[0415/191855:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: chill out
[0415/191858:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: I don't find it funny
[0415/191903:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Nor do I need to 'chill out'
[0415/191904:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: because you're shadow
[0415/191906:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Don't cage other admins.
[0415/191919:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: let a bit of humor into your life.
[0415/191929:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Don't cage other admins or I will suspend you.
[0415/191941:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: jesus fuck chill out
[0415/191943:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: No.
[0415/191946:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Like I said.
[0415/191954:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Do not cage other admins or I will suspend you.
[0415/191959:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: And I won't repeat that again.
[0415/192013:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Do you understand?
[0415/192016:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: i, quite frankly, don't care. i just want to have some fun with one of my friends.
[0415/192018:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: it's not abuse.
[0415/192028:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: but i won't cage him any longer.
[0415/192035:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: No, it's delinquent misuse of your administrator commands.
[0415/192100:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: I take it as a big deal because it could just as easily be an act of aggression towards another a
[0415/192106:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: So, like I said.
[0415/192114:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: if it were an act of agression, Mnpn would be telling me to stop.
[0415/192123:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: i'm not fucking abusing any of my powers.
[0415/192131:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Doesn't matter if it's an actual act of aggression, it's the thought that counts.
[0415/192150:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: /cage isn't for fun and games.
[0415/192203:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: You might as well be banning other admins too because it's the same thing.
[0415/192214:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: it's not even remotely close to banning other admins.
[0415/192227:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: /cage is a command intended for punishing other operators.
[0415/192234:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Do I need to explain myself further here?
[0415/192237:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: yes.
[0415/192239:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: you do.
[0415/192239:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: No.
[0415/192240:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: I don't.
[0415/192251:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] DarkLynx108 - Kicking: irix.
[0415/192326:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] irix is a Senior Admin
[0415/192326:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] irix joined the game
[0415/192330:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Who did that?
[0415/192341:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: i wish i could say it was me, but it wasn't.
[0415/192354:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: If anyone was on Telnet, provide me with some log evidence.
[0415/192403:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Like I said, don't cage other admins.
[0415/192412:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: If I catch you doing it there will be a problem
[0415/192422:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: i might get suspended for saying this but
[0415/192430:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: you are not the boss of me, and i don't give half a rat's anus.
3. Did you attempt to correct the admin before suspending him/her?
Yes.
4. Did you notify the admin that you removed them from and why?
I told the administrator that he was suspended.
5. If you answered no to either 3 or 4, please explain. Except in extreme case such as the admin going rogue and trying to crash the server or if you were undercover, I would expect yes answers for both.
Five to ten minutes before posting this.
2. Why you suspended the admin - include relevant log entries.
The administrator I suspended, Lucas , I caught caging another administrator and I first warned them to stop. After they made a request to elaborate why they shouldn't cage other admins, this admin insisted that I was in the wrong for telling them not to and that it was okay because they were 'just playing around'. After I explained myself further and told them not to do it again, they began touting how they didn't have to do what I said and that I "wasn't the boss of them" and that they "didn't give a rat's ass" or something along those lines and I finally suspended them for delinquent tomfoolery, abuse of commands (if you want to call it that), and disrespect towards me. Below is log evidence.
[415/191109:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [SA] <Mnpn> suspension for pigmask
[0415/191112:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [SA] <Mnpn> gmc pvper
[0415/191114:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] rovertpug - De-opping Mnpn
[0415/191127:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] Pigmask - Caging Mnpn in Pigmask
[0415/191402:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Mnpn [SA]: irix i think you should suspend pigmask
[0415/191433:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Provide me with log evidence and I'll look at it
[0415/191441:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: If you're trying to make a joke, it's not funny
[0415/191808:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] Pigmask - Caging Mnpn
[0415/191820:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Pig, what the hell are you doing
[0415/191828:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: i honestly dont know
[0415/191832:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Mnpn [SA]: he is abusing me
[0415/191842:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Oh, so you must not be trusted with this rank if you have no control over yourself
[0415/191853:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: it's just a prank bro
[0415/191855:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: chill out
[0415/191858:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: I don't find it funny
[0415/191903:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Nor do I need to 'chill out'
[0415/191904:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: because you're shadow
[0415/191906:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Don't cage other admins.
[0415/191919:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: let a bit of humor into your life.
[0415/191929:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Don't cage other admins or I will suspend you.
[0415/191941:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: jesus fuck chill out
[0415/191943:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: No.
[0415/191946:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Like I said.
[0415/191954:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Do not cage other admins or I will suspend you.
[0415/191959:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: And I won't repeat that again.
[0415/192013:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Do you understand?
[0415/192016:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: i, quite frankly, don't care. i just want to have some fun with one of my friends.
[0415/192018:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: it's not abuse.
[0415/192028:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: but i won't cage him any longer.
[0415/192035:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: No, it's delinquent misuse of your administrator commands.
[0415/192100:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: I take it as a big deal because it could just as easily be an act of aggression towards another a
[0415/192106:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: So, like I said.
[0415/192114:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: if it were an act of agression, Mnpn would be telling me to stop.
[0415/192123:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: i'm not fucking abusing any of my powers.
[0415/192131:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Doesn't matter if it's an actual act of aggression, it's the thought that counts.
[0415/192150:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: /cage isn't for fun and games.
[0415/192203:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: You might as well be banning other admins too because it's the same thing.
[0415/192214:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: it's not even remotely close to banning other admins.
[0415/192227:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: /cage is a command intended for punishing other operators.
[0415/192234:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Do I need to explain myself further here?
[0415/192237:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: yes.
[0415/192239:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: you do.
[0415/192239:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: No.
[0415/192240:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: I don't.
[0415/192251:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] DarkLynx108 - Kicking: irix.
[0415/192326:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] irix is a Senior Admin
[0415/192326:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] irix joined the game
[0415/192330:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Who did that?
[0415/192341:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: i wish i could say it was me, but it wasn't.
[0415/192354:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: If anyone was on Telnet, provide me with some log evidence.
[0415/192403:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: Like I said, don't cage other admins.
[0415/192412:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] irix [SrA]: If I catch you doing it there will be a problem
[0415/192422:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: i might get suspended for saying this but
[0415/192430:INFO:GameCallbacks.cpp(178)] game/net.minecraft.client.gui.GuiNewChat (Client thread) info [CHAT] [ADMIN] Pigmask [STA]: you are not the boss of me, and i don't give half a rat's anus.
3. Did you attempt to correct the admin before suspending him/her?
Yes.
4. Did you notify the admin that you removed them from and why?
I told the administrator that he was suspended.
5. If you answered no to either 3 or 4, please explain. Except in extreme case such as the admin going rogue and trying to crash the server or if you were undercover, I would expect yes answers for both.
ChaotixTF2 for TF2 stuff and shitposts // ChaotixGraphics for graphic design stuff
