square
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Post by square on Jul 18, 2020 1:49:19 GMT
Vouch (lets see how many people are influenced by me ?) invalid opinion object
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 9:04:33 GMT
Um, object? Everyone on this server should be allowed to comment and express their views, regardless of position. I also doubt this would change much because you can always "change" your opinion. In addition, this would be highly subjective and nearly impossible to enforce. Again, I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to express an opinion, my issue is especially when they post the thread, if you are the first person to respond, and you literally own the server, you've immediately biased the entire thread and may as well have included your opinion in the thread. I'm not saying people can't change their votes, but I'd imagine a significant number of people vote on a thread and never re-visit it anyway, or if they did in reading the responses to realise someone more senior has replied they've read other opinions as well. I'm also absolutely not saying we should be enforcing this, but people such as Seth need to be mindful that most people on here are on here because they've got a rank, when you look at the balance between players and admins on the forums, it's mostly admins, and it's mostly admins who want to get a higher rank, therefore agreeing with Seth on everything he says makes you look like you are the perfect person to get promoted.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 9:06:05 GMT
How are we gonna enforce this lmao we can't invalidate their vote for 24h because votes don't work that way I'm saying those people should be being mindful of when they post in these threads, and refrain from doing so until generally the first 24 hours has passed, being the first or second response to a thread you posted when you're an owner / executive just immediately gets everyone who's ass-kissing to agree with you without bothering to read the thread or context. I'm not asking for this to be a rule, I'd just like people to either be aware that they're being biased and for the exec's and Seth to be mindful that they bias people in what they post...
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 9:07:59 GMT
Object, the line drawn is too vague. What if I'm more influenced by Wild1145 than by anyone else because I admire his ability to run a company? Or by Feueristic because he is one of the only OPs who says they do not aspire to become an admin? You can't measure someone's "likelihood to be sucked up to". I get that, but I have no position of power on this server. Most people will be influences by the person(s) that have an influence over their progression on here, like Seth, like the executives. I'm not saying we can remove all bias, but if people such as the executives can be mindful that them being the first response to their own thread, will immediately get a lot of people agreeing with them just because they want to appear to be a team players and get that promotion, we might actually start to get some meaningful conversations happening on here without it just being "Well he said no so I say no" which is what's happening in a lot of threads at the moment.
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Luke
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Post by Luke on Jul 18, 2020 9:09:53 GMT
How are we gonna enforce this lmao we can't invalidate their vote for 24h because votes don't work that way I'm saying those people should be being mindful of when they post in these threads, and refrain from doing so until generally the first 24 hours has passed, being the first or second response to a thread you posted when you're an owner / executive just immediately gets everyone who's ass-kissing to agree with you without bothering to read the thread or context. I'm not asking for this to be a rule, I'd just like people to either be aware that they're being biased and for the exec's and Seth to be mindful that they bias people in what they post... that's understandable, the post just does seem kinda like you're trying to enact a rule, my bad
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 9:10:36 GMT
Object. People should use their own opinion not mine or the Executive team. Simply don't read my response. I posted mine right after because I read it even before posting them. No one should have to wait some random amount of time to post their opinion. You're the owner of this server, for most people on the forums and in game, you're the person they need to impress to get a rank on the server... You posting when you did has 100% biased a number of responses on those threads, and therefore the validity of that discussion is pretty worthless now, I'm not asking for this to become policy, I'm asking you and the executives to take responsibility and accept that you're in a position of power and that people will kiss your ass even if they don't admit it because they want you to promote them, and often that means not reading anything but your reply when it's 1st or 2nd in a thread, and treating that as the holy fucking truth.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 9:12:10 GMT
I'm saying those people should be being mindful of when they post in these threads, and refrain from doing so until generally the first 24 hours has passed, being the first or second response to a thread you posted when you're an owner / executive just immediately gets everyone who's ass-kissing to agree with you without bothering to read the thread or context. I'm not asking for this to be a rule, I'd just like people to either be aware that they're being biased and for the exec's and Seth to be mindful that they bias people in what they post... that's understandable, the post just does seem kinda like you're trying to enact a rule, my bad No, I tried to make sure I'm not necessarily suggesting we put this as a formal policy, but I'd like it to be considered by the community as something potentially that is 'Encouraged'. was clear in the post by putting it towards the end. I think it's fairly un-enforcable as a rule, but I'd really like the community to start to challenge the behaviour and for Seth & The Exec's to own this and be mindful of when they post so as not to immediately invalidate an entire thread because the entire first page is "Yeah I agree with <Insert Seth / Executive Name here>" which is happening more and more at the moment.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 9:13:32 GMT
Vouch (lets see how many people are influenced by me ?) You say it, but I've genuinely observed threads where as soon as you post an opinion that is different to the majority of the thread, people suddenly go and change their votes... Again not saying we can fix that, but by you not being the first reply or two on a thread it gives people a chance to give their honest opinion and discussion at which point unless you make a good argument most people aren't likely to just change their votes.
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zeseryu
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Post by zeseryu on Jul 18, 2020 9:22:52 GMT
Vouch (lets see how many people are influenced by me ?) You say it, but I've genuinely observed threads where as soon as you post an opinion that is different to the majority of the thread, people suddenly go and change their votes... Again not saying we can fix that, but by you not being the first reply or two on a thread it gives people a chance to give their honest opinion and discussion at which point unless you make a good argument most people aren't likely to just change their votes. Do you believe that's due to my executive title and red name?
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fionn
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Post by fionn on Jul 18, 2020 9:25:38 GMT
Vouch (lets see how many people are influenced by me ?) You say it, but I've genuinely observed threads where as soon as you post an opinion that is different to the majority of the thread, people suddenly go and change their votes... Again not saying we can fix that, but by you not being the first reply or two on a thread it gives people a chance to give their honest opinion and discussion at which point unless you make a good argument most people aren't likely to just change their votes. Polls allow for anonymity and that's why we began using them. Although you're not wrong when it comes to those of higher authority having influence, this is a really bad way to go about combating it. Object, by the way
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 9:27:13 GMT
You say it, but I've genuinely observed threads where as soon as you post an opinion that is different to the majority of the thread, people suddenly go and change their votes... Again not saying we can fix that, but by you not being the first reply or two on a thread it gives people a chance to give their honest opinion and discussion at which point unless you make a good argument most people aren't likely to just change their votes. Do you believe that's due to my executive title and red name? I think it's a contributing factor, you ultimately decide who gets made admin and who doesn't. If I was an OP that cared about getting a rank I'd want to be agreeing with everything you say to make it look like I'm the perfect person for you to promote to admin... I'm not saying it's the only thing, but when it's very early in the discussion (Like 1st or 2nd post) I think the red name and title goes a lot further than the actual point you make in your post.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 9:29:15 GMT
You say it, but I've genuinely observed threads where as soon as you post an opinion that is different to the majority of the thread, people suddenly go and change their votes... Again not saying we can fix that, but by you not being the first reply or two on a thread it gives people a chance to give their honest opinion and discussion at which point unless you make a good argument most people aren't likely to just change their votes. Polls allow for anonymity and that's why we began using them. Although you're not wrong when it comes to those of higher authority having influence, this is a really bad way to go about combating it. Object, by the way Anonymity isn't the answer either though, because polls don't provide context and information behind why someone made their decision. I'm really open to suggestions on what you'd do to fix this problem, because this was the best I could come up with, to encourage Executives + to be more careful of when they post, generally following a rule of thumb that giving it 24 hours after the thread goes live is probably suitable. I'm not saying it should be in the forum posting guidelines or anything like that, I'm just asking for it to be acknowledged, and something that we are mindful of and the executives + can then self-police themselves. If there's a better way of doing it, I'm open to ideas but I certainly haven't found a better solution yet.
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fionn
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Post by fionn on Jul 18, 2020 9:35:41 GMT
Polls allow for anonymity and that's why we began using them. Although you're not wrong when it comes to those of higher authority having influence, this is a really bad way to go about combating it. Object, by the way Anonymity isn't the answer either though, because polls don't provide context and information behind why someone made their decision. I'm really open to suggestions on what you'd do to fix this problem, because this was the best I could come up with, to encourage Executives + to be more careful of when they post, generally following a rule of thumb that giving it 24 hours after the thread goes live is probably suitable. I'm not saying it should be in the forum posting guidelines or anything like that, I'm just asking for it to be acknowledged, and something that we are mindful of and the executives + can then self-police themselves. If there's a better way of doing it, I'm open to ideas but I certainly haven't found a better solution yet. Although polls aren't the answer either, it's certainly better than what's being proposed here. You win some, you lose some. I don't think there's a better productive way of going about it. I also don't think it's solely Executives who hold influence. In most aspects, every admin in this community holds influence. I would almost go as far as to say you have some influence yourself. People see you as a longstanding member of this community. I speak first hand when I say I've previously been influenced by your opinions on matters; my point here is there isn't a way to combat this and satisfy everybody.
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StevenNL2000
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Post by StevenNL2000 on Jul 18, 2020 9:40:09 GMT
Object, the line drawn is too vague. What if I'm more influenced by Wild1145 than by anyone else because I admire his ability to run a company? Or by Feueristic because he is one of the only OPs who says they do not aspire to become an admin? You can't measure someone's "likelihood to be sucked up to". I get that, but I have no position of power on this server. Most people will be influences by the person(s) that have an influence over their progression on here, like Seth, like the executives. I'm not saying we can remove all bias, but if people such as the executives can be mindful that them being the first response to their own thread, will immediately get a lot of people agreeing with them just because they want to appear to be a team players and get that promotion, we might actually start to get some meaningful conversations happening on here without it just being "Well he said no so I say no" which is what's happening in a lot of threads at the moment. I get the idea, but my point is not about the idea, it is about the people it is supposed to apply to. Just like I can argue that your opinion is influential, I can argue that the Creative Designer vouching on a permban appeal is not influential because they couldn't process the appeal even if they wanted to. That is why I say the line drawn is too vague.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 9:46:18 GMT
I get that, but I have no position of power on this server. Most people will be influences by the person(s) that have an influence over their progression on here, like Seth, like the executives. I'm not saying we can remove all bias, but if people such as the executives can be mindful that them being the first response to their own thread, will immediately get a lot of people agreeing with them just because they want to appear to be a team players and get that promotion, we might actually start to get some meaningful conversations happening on here without it just being "Well he said no so I say no" which is what's happening in a lot of threads at the moment. I get the idea, but my point is not about the idea, it is about the people it is supposed to apply to. Just like I can argue that your opinion is influential, I can argue that the Creative Designer vouching on a permban appeal is not influential because they couldn't process the appeal even if they wanted to. That is why I say the line drawn is too vague. That's fair, I had a long think about this and couldn't think of a more sensible line to draw, but if you've got a better idea that might be more effective than this I'd be really keen to hear it. Again for me this is more about those executives and other senior members of the server being more aware of what they post and how it can influence others potentially to the detriment of the server, I don't have a good hard and fast rule on who exactly should be included for each thread, which is why I suggested this be something the community encourages and those in a position of power then self-police, that way you for example may choose to make a case on a suggestion, but not on perm bans until most other people have for example. I agree that the line isn't great, but I don't 'think it needs to be when it's not something I see being added to any guidelines.
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