decyj145
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Post by decyj145 on Jul 1, 2020 7:46:27 GMT
I object purely because I don't think that we should be giving newly appointed, inexperienced admins telnet access. But we should give them the same powers on the Minecraft client? They shouldn't be given plc and saconfig perms - and also I believe that its beneficial for telnets to have plc because they can easily temporarily disable a plugin if its causing issues to the server's performance.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 1, 2020 7:52:28 GMT
But we should give them the same powers on the Minecraft client? They shouldn't be given plc and saconfig perms - and also I believe that its beneficial for telnets to have plc because they can easily temporarily disable a plugin if its causing issues to the server's performance. I feel like many people are voting based on these arguments, but I don't see how they are an actual reason against this suggestion... It just means we need a separate discussion regardless of this suggestion on what certain ranks should have access to, because telnet admin at no point was supposed to have access to something a super admin or senior admin unless a command had to be console-only (except back in the day it was advised that only senior admins should use those commands). I highly disagree with telnets having plc and saconfig permissions regardless of this suggestion, though, because I think it is extremely inappropriate for what is basically a server moderator to be tampering with the systems enabled on a live server and more just means that we have failed at very basic system administration (you'd get laughed out of the room if you suggested non-system administrators/developers of any platform having the ability to disable/enable parts of a system, and I'm speaking in general there for any platform not even specific to Minecraft at all).
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elmon
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Post by elmon on Jul 1, 2020 7:55:13 GMT
I think what could be enabled is giving Super Admins access to telnet with Super Admin permissions. This could require a renaming of ranks as it would no longer make sense for Telnets to be called Telnets if Telnet isn't exclusive anymore, but I think it would make sense for Super Admins to be able to access telnet which is essentially the same as them logging in through MineChat or equivalent. Granted that they dont have saconfig, plc, adminmode/similar.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 1, 2020 10:47:13 GMT
ok hold on, I'm confused, super admin and telnet admin are nowhere near the same thing, telnets jobs are to monitor server performance and stability using things like telnet netdata and the logs, to be able to proform this task they have to be more trusted this is because we are able to control plugins and can also toggle lockups, offline mode, and other things like that. the ranks are very different and telnet is not just "super admin but with remote terminal access" I'm not sure where you got that definition from. The literal definition of a telnet admin is an admin with telnet access, you should be doing the same thing as a super admin, just with the ability to join from the console if you don't want to play in game. Most of the other things you mention should really be senior admin only but that's a different discussion entirely imo... Also, the trust argument is a nonsense, if you don't trust an admin with telnet, you shouldn't be trusting them to administer in game... They can do just as much damage to the server in game than from the console and just has to log in when there is nobody else online... It's a really silly argument when the risk change between super and telnet is in reality pretty much nill...
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 1, 2020 10:49:28 GMT
Object I think it would be more secure to have three ranks in general. If someone just applied for admin and was accepted with bad intentions, they would have all the permissions a telnet admin would have and could cause possible harm. If they start off at a lower rank with less harmful permissions, less damage could be done. New appointed admins are also just less experienced and shouldn't be merged together with more experienced admins. Please elaborate, if someone has bad intentions they could just wait until they're a telnet before doing anything, or a senior admin... We've seen it happen. I understand the experience perspective, but again please remember for many years when this server started we had no difference in this rank, we only created it to bridge a gap when telnet used to have a lot more access, and telnet admins were basically senior admins without clan forge... If you think the permissions should be changed that's an entirely different topic, I am trying to push that we should have one rank for admins, and one for senior admins. The admins (Currently super and telnet) ultimately do the same job, some can just access it remotely and I'm saying everyone should have that access.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 1, 2020 10:50:06 GMT
Object, if something isn't broken don't fix it. As I've said, this is not about fixing something that's broken, it's about improving this server and making changes that will improve the quality of life... Can you give me other reasons we wouldn't want to do this? Just because it's what we've 'Always' done (Which we haven't as I've said, telnet is a relatively new concept) doesn't mean it's what we should always do...
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 1, 2020 10:51:42 GMT
You shouldn't have the permission to control plugins... nobody except for system administrators and developers should be fucking with the plugins that are on the server. We're living on different planets if you think your job as a telnet admin on the live server is supposed to be "performing tasks" related to "server performance and stability", other crap you listed should be senior only anyways. we have had access to it for so long, and i have had to use it for legitimate reasons many times, also that is litterly what our job description is listed as Have you got a link to this job description? I just can't recall there ever being a difference beyond that one has telnet access and one does not... If there is a wider difference we may need to address sorting permissions before addressing this suggestion but ultimately I see no reason that the majority of our staff shouldn't have access to all of the tools available to them.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 1, 2020 10:52:31 GMT
I'm going to simply object. I don't see any benefits from this. Do you see any issues with it though? And is there any reason you want to maintain the current system beyond the fact it's just what we've had for a while?
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 1, 2020 10:53:15 GMT
If we merged Super Admin with Super Telnet Admin, we'd have a lot of "Admins" or "Moderators." As of right now there are 31 telnet admins in the "Telnet Admin" group and 20 super admins in the "Super Admin" group on the forums. Merging the groups would create 50+ admins/moderators. But we already have all of those staff, so the fact they are now one title rather than 2 shouldn't really make a difference. All it does mean is that all of those staff have access to the majority of tools that enable effective administration rather than knobling half the team...
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 1, 2020 10:54:22 GMT
I object purely because I don't think that we should be giving newly appointed, inexperienced admins telnet access. But by that argument I'd maintain they shouldn't be admin in the first place... If we can't trust someone to effectively administer the server they shouldn't be an admin full stop. I don't understand why giving them another tool to do their jobs effectively is a bad thing?
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monkeh
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Post by monkeh on Jul 1, 2020 10:57:07 GMT
past telnet clans who are still telnet in shambles rn
but I agree with the change, wilee and wild make compelling points - it's unreasonable to maintain this rank structure when there's really so little separating super and telnet
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 1, 2020 10:57:38 GMT
I think what could be enabled is giving Super Admins access to telnet with Super Admin permissions. This could require a renaming of ranks as it would no longer make sense for Telnets to be called Telnets if Telnet isn't exclusive anymore, but I think it would make sense for Super Admins to be able to access telnet which is essentially the same as them logging in through MineChat or equivalent. Granted that they dont have saconfig, plc, adminmode/similar. So I have no issue with us discussing (As a separate suggestion) the permissions people should have. My personal view is the more tools we give our staff the better they can administrate, and therefore the better the player experience of the server. I don't see a value in having two separate ranks for what is effectively the same access in game or on a remote console (And I do appreciate there are currently some subtle differences), and that's the point of this suggestion. I'd be more than happy with saying we should not actually make this change until permissions are sorted, but until someone raises a suggestion for that I can't really put something in the OP to say 'And check out this thread for the changes we propose to happen first' sort of thing.
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Taze
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Post by Taze on Jul 1, 2020 11:17:45 GMT
Weird how this suggestion is made by someone who hasn't been on TF for over a month... :hmm:
I'm objecting (not for that you haven't been for over a month (that's not a valid reason), but because I prefer to keep it as it is right now and I don't think this is necessary).
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 1, 2020 11:38:27 GMT
Weird how this suggestion is made by someone who hasn't been on TF for over a month... :hmm: I'm objecting (not for that you haven't been for over a month (that's not a valid reason), but because I prefer to keep it as it is right now and I don't think this is necessary). It continues to amaze me that the fact I'm not active in game makes my opinions less valid... I've been part of the community since 2012 and am a former executive, lead developer and currently an inactive senior admin... I certainly feel like I probably have enough experience to make educated suggestions on what I think will improve things based on what I've seen. Also that's fair, are you able to elaborate on why you want to keep things how they are and what benefit that brings us over this suggestion?
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StevenNL2000
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Post by StevenNL2000 on Jul 1, 2020 17:06:48 GMT
I think there are two separate issues here: the separation of Super and Telnet as a hierarchy of power, and the separation of Super and Telnet as a hierarchy of trust. Telnet Admin has more power and is seen by some as more trustworthy than Super Admin, regardless of whether it is currently or was originally intended that way. The power is something you can easily discuss because it's about permissions. The trust is more difficult because it depends on if you think admins reach a higher level of trust when they are promoted.
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