zeseryu
Veteran Member
Admin Officer
ops rights activist
Posts: 1,181
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Post by zeseryu on Jun 30, 2020 23:49:14 GMT
Vouch.
There's really no real reason that we currently have super, telnet, and senior. Tradiation? Telnets and Seniors are more trusted than Supers? No and if you actually believe that you're stupid. You get promoted based off your popularity within the server, not actual merit. It literally just makes sense that we would have [Mod] and [Admin]. It helps with the traditional path of every popular operator becoming an admin and lowers the actual incentive in becoming an admin.
I have never personally looked at Senior admin and thought, wow, he is to be more trusted than this Super admin. I think that's silly, you get my respect through your work, not a shiny promotion title your friends voted on you to achieve. The current rank system is a glorified reward system you get through having friends.
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tozzit
Veteran Member
Posts: 2,329
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Post by tozzit on Jun 30, 2020 23:50:49 GMT
Vouch. There's really no real reason that we currently have super, telnet, and senior. Tradiation? Telnets and Seniors are more trusted than Supers? No and if you actually believe that you're stupid. You get promoted based off your popularity within the server, not actual merit. It literally just makes sense that we would have [Mod] and [Admin]. It helps with the traditional path of every popular operator becoming an admin and lowers the actual incentive in becoming an admin. I have never personally looked at Senior admin and thought, wow, he is to be more trusted than this Super admin. I think that's silly, you get my respect through your work, not a shiny promotion title your friends voted on you to achieve. The current rank system is a glorified reward system you get through having friends. this suggestion literally doesnt solve any of these points you raised??
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jun 30, 2020 23:54:33 GMT
Vouch. There's really no real reason that we currently have super, telnet, and senior. Tradiation? Telnets and Seniors are more trusted than Supers? No and if you actually believe that you're stupid. You get promoted based off your popularity within the server, not actual merit. It literally just makes sense that we would have [Mod] and [Admin]. It helps with the traditional path of every popular operator becoming an admin and lowers the actual incentive in becoming an admin. I have never personally looked at Senior admin and thought, wow, he is to be more trusted than this Super admin. I think that's silly, you get my respect through your work, not a shiny promotion title your friends voted on you to achieve. The current rank system is a glorified reward system you get through having friends. this suggestion literally doesnt solve any of these points you raised?? It's an incremental step. Why should we keep a false hierarchy in place?
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zeseryu
Veteran Member
Admin Officer
ops rights activist
Posts: 1,181
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Post by zeseryu on Jun 30, 2020 23:55:45 GMT
Vouch. There's really no real reason that we currently have super, telnet, and senior. Tradiation? Telnets and Seniors are more trusted than Supers? No and if you actually believe that you're stupid. You get promoted based off your popularity within the server, not actual merit. It literally just makes sense that we would have [Mod] and [Admin]. It helps with the traditional path of every popular operator becoming an admin and lowers the actual incentive in becoming an admin. I have never personally looked at Senior admin and thought, wow, he is to be more trusted than this Super admin. I think that's silly, you get my respect through your work, not a shiny promotion title your friends voted on you to achieve. The current rank system is a glorified reward system you get through having friends. this suggestion literally doesnt solve any of these points you raised?? It removes the completely useless rank hierarchy we currently have?
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tozzit
Veteran Member
Posts: 2,329
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Post by tozzit on Jul 1, 2020 0:01:26 GMT
this suggestion literally doesnt solve any of these points you raised?? It's an incremental step. Why should we keep a false hierarchy in place? Why not include everything in this suggestion then? I am not voting yes because its a 'incremental step' in something that i dont even know what the end goal is. How does this eliminate a false hierarchy? Theres still a clear hierarchy here between mods and admins and execs assistant execs and devs and an owner. Unless this server becomes a direct democracy theres always gonna be a hierarchy here.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 1, 2020 0:05:40 GMT
It's an incremental step. Why should we keep a false hierarchy in place? Why not include everything in this suggestion then? I am not voting yes because its a 'incremental step' in something that i dont even know what the end goal is. How does this eliminate a false hierarchy? Theres still a clear hierarchy here between mods and admins and execs assistant execs and devs and an owner. Unless this server becomes a direct democracy theres always gonna be a hierarchy here. The end goal is to make the server administrative ranks reflect the current system of how we do things. Do we use the same trust-based system that we did in 2011 and 2012 as I described? No. Do senior admins actually manage admins anymore and frankly is it their job to anymore? No. Then why do we have a hierarchy in which admins are encouraged to climb through a pointless ladder just for them to gain more privileges like access to a remote console? If we are recruiting super admins correctly, there is no reason why they shouldn't have access to a remote console, which is how we use the telnet protocol. It has nothing to do with democracy, it has to do with simplifying how we do things to reflect our current system.
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Post by DragonSlayer2189 on Jul 1, 2020 0:13:54 GMT
ok hold on, I'm confused, super admin and telnet admin are nowhere near the same thing, telnets jobs are to monitor server performance and stability using things like telnet netdata and the logs, to be able to proform this task they have to be more trusted this is because we are able to control plugins and can also toggle lockups, offline mode, and other things like that. the ranks are very different and telnet is not just "super admin but with remote terminal access"
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tozzit
Veteran Member
Posts: 2,329
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Post by tozzit on Jul 1, 2020 0:16:52 GMT
Why not include everything in this suggestion then? I am not voting yes because its a 'incremental step' in something that i dont even know what the end goal is. How does this eliminate a false hierarchy? Theres still a clear hierarchy here between mods and admins and execs assistant execs and devs and an owner. Unless this server becomes a direct democracy theres always gonna be a hierarchy here. The end goal is to make the server administrative ranks reflect the current system of how we do things. Do we use the same trust-based system that we did in 2011 and 2012 as I described? No. Do senior admins actually manage admins anymore and frankly is it their job to anymore? No. Then why do we have a hierarchy in which admins are encouraged to climb through a pointless ladder just for them to gain more privileges like access to a remote console? If we are recruiting super admins correctly, there is no reason why they shouldn't have access to a remote console, which is how we use the telnet protocol. It has nothing to do with democracy, it has to do with simplifying how we do things to reflect our current system. I'll ask again what the end goal is. 'to make the administrative ranks reflect the current system' isnt really an answer and did not give me any sort of confidence in this because this is subjective depending on what you think the current system is and how the admin ranks need to be changed to fit that.
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Post by Captainclimber on Jul 1, 2020 0:17:56 GMT
Object
I think it would be more secure to have three ranks in general. If someone just applied for admin and was accepted with bad intentions, they would have all the permissions a telnet admin would have and could cause possible harm. If they start off at a lower rank with less harmful permissions, less damage could be done.
New appointed admins are also just less experienced and shouldn't be merged together with more experienced admins.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 1, 2020 0:22:55 GMT
Object I think it would be more secure to have three ranks in general. If someone just applied for admin and was accepted with bad intentions, they would have all the permissions a telnet admin would have and could cause possible harm. If they start off at a lower rank with less harmful permissions, less damage could be done. New appointed admins are also just less experienced and shouldn't be merged together with more experienced admins. Can you clarify what permissions these are? Because realistically telnet admin doesn't need more powers than a super admin does. Operating under the assumption that the super admins we accept are going to cause damage makes little sense to me.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 1, 2020 0:25:59 GMT
ok hold on, I'm confused, super admin and telnet admin are nowhere near the same thing, telnets jobs are to monitor server performance and stability using things like telnet netdata and the logs, to be able to proform this task they have to be more trusted this is because we are able to control plugins and can also toggle lockups, offline mode, and other things like that. the ranks are very different and telnet is not just "super admin but with remote terminal access" You shouldn't have the permission to control plugins... nobody except for system administrators and developers should be fucking with the plugins that are on the server. We're living on different planets if you think your job as a telnet admin on the live server is supposed to be "performing tasks" related to "server performance and stability", other crap you listed should be senior only anyways.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jul 1, 2020 0:29:22 GMT
The end goal is to make the server administrative ranks reflect the current system of how we do things. Do we use the same trust-based system that we did in 2011 and 2012 as I described? No. Do senior admins actually manage admins anymore and frankly is it their job to anymore? No. Then why do we have a hierarchy in which admins are encouraged to climb through a pointless ladder just for them to gain more privileges like access to a remote console? If we are recruiting super admins correctly, there is no reason why they shouldn't have access to a remote console, which is how we use the telnet protocol. It has nothing to do with democracy, it has to do with simplifying how we do things to reflect our current system. I'll ask again what the end goal is. 'to make the administrative ranks reflect the current system' isnt really an answer and did not give me any sort of confidence in this because this is subjective depending on what you think the current system is and how the admin ranks need to be changed to fit that. We have an application system. We have admin officers and Internal Affairs. We have a training system now. Based off of those facts, we don't need to have an entire rank with access to console just so that we can feel better about "trust" even though we have actual systems in place to manage administrators compared to years ago where Mark would give people access to telnet for being in his trusted admin list. It's a simplification of the hierarchy, it's really not difficult to wrap your head around.
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nick
Veteran Member
Posts: 766
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Post by nick on Jul 1, 2020 0:33:19 GMT
Object, if something isn't broken don't fix it.
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grntbg
Full Member
Omnis anima potestatibus sublimioribus subdita sit.
Posts: 295
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Post by grntbg on Jul 1, 2020 0:48:10 GMT
Object, if something isn't broken don't fix it. This is an incredibly stupid mindset to have for a video game. Not only would the game version never be updated under this tenant but what you have said previously: doesn't make sense. Getting rid of redundant hierarchy is "better for the server" and "if it's for the better of the server, then so be it."
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Post by DragonSlayer2189 on Jul 1, 2020 2:11:04 GMT
ok hold on, I'm confused, super admin and telnet admin are nowhere near the same thing, telnets jobs are to monitor server performance and stability using things like telnet netdata and the logs, to be able to proform this task they have to be more trusted this is because we are able to control plugins and can also toggle lockups, offline mode, and other things like that. the ranks are very different and telnet is not just "super admin but with remote terminal access" You shouldn't have the permission to control plugins... nobody except for system administrators and developers should be fucking with the plugins that are on the server. We're living on different planets if you think your job as a telnet admin on the live server is supposed to be "performing tasks" related to "server performance and stability", other crap you listed should be senior only anyways. we have had access to it for so long, and i have had to use it for legitimate reasons many times, also that is litterly what our job description is listed as
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