Wild1145
Club 4000 Member
Inactive Player & Inactive Senior Admin
Posts: 10,414
| Likes: 9,680
|
Post by Wild1145 on Jun 9, 2020 7:22:27 GMT
While I don't inherently disagree. A few points. - As you say, this isn't really your place to make such expectations, should this not be in a different board given there is nothing 'Official' about this? - Why hasn't this been raised with either the EAO (or acting) or IA if it's proving to be that big of a problem to make an official statement? - Breaking down that paragraph might be a good idea, because it's just a wall of text... - Feels like you're brushing a shit load of people with the same brush... I'm not sure that tends to go down well when a lot of people are probably doing their best. - Everyone should be entitled to express their opinions. No matter how controversial or heated or dividing they may be. To oppress admins ends up just pushing a larger wedge and widening that divide, I really disagree with the point you make there That's my view on it. Happy to discuss. Admin information isn't just for "official" posts, as per the forums description. Admin announcements would be where the strictly official forum threads would go. This post re-iterating administrative expectations should without a doubt belong in admin information, as it is, information for admins. I am also not stating anything "new" in what I said, I'm simply re-iterating an already official point. Just to clarify what I meant by "sociopolitical" discussion in-game: Sociopolitical conversation on this forum is by all means welcomed. We have an effective system in place making sure deep discussion is more or less clean, factual, and on-topic. The sociopolitical conversation I'm referring to in-game relates to admins doing just the opposite. I don't mean to name names here, but here's a typical example embodying this: OP 1: Gay people shouldn't be allowed to use the same restrooms as straight people because our brains are wired differently, Admin 1: Yeah lollll gay people shouldn't be allowed to use the same restrooms as straight people because straight people are superior. Gay people make me uncomfortable lmaooo. OP 2: I'm gay and I think this discussion is complete bullshit, I am shocked that an admin agrees with this. Admin 1: You're a snowflake, if you're offended, leave. While I agree that everyone is entitled to an opinion, this is the "sociopolitical" discussion I was referring too. Personally, restricting admins from partaking in conversations like this doesn't at all restrict their freedom. If anything, having admins partake in this type of speech limits the freedom of marginalized OPs. I think it's important though to clarify that these are 'Your Expectations'. They're not 'Official' or seemingly documented anywhere else, that was perhaps more of the point I Was getting at. I could make a thread with my expectations of what admins should do, but it wouldn't make it any more or less official than yours. I personally feel it's inappropriate to make such a thread when there are people here who's literal role it is to manage admins... Just feels like toe treading and further removing the need for IA / EAO if every senior admin is going to just spout their own expectations. Frankly, I appreciate the 'Problem' with your example, but I strongly disagree with censoring the opinions of an admin so as not to offend an OP... Is there anything in the conduct policy that restricts an OP from expressing that opinion? Until there is, I would argue that we should not be telling the admins they may not participate in a discussion. I will however agree that there is a difference between 'Civil Discussion' and 'Being a wanker' and that's a fine line to cross, but I think other admins should be able to hold admins to account. If a senior is online and seeing this conversation they are well within their rights to suspend the admin and give them a tongue lashing if they're being abusive towards an OP, but up until the last comment on your example, I'd argue that conversation is perfectly acceptable to take place. Everyone is entitled to express an opinion, and as soon as we change that approach, we know we've gone and fucked this server up.
|
|
Wild1145
Club 4000 Member
Inactive Player & Inactive Senior Admin
Posts: 10,414
| Likes: 9,680
|
Post by Wild1145 on Jun 9, 2020 7:28:50 GMT
But to respond to your point, there are definitely some serious conduct and abuse issues present in our staff team. Perhaps you don't outright see them because of timezones, activity or what have you, but they 100% exist If you've seen this behavior why haven't you taken action at the time to remedy such behavior? Ignoring your executive role, you're a senior admin. You have the power to remove an admin in game if you need to in order to make a point clear, I know people have mixed feelings on how I used to administrate, but back when I was an active administrator, if I was seeing behavior that was 'Unacceptable' that's on me to have a conversation with that admin, or formally suspend them if it's that serious. I don't think it's fair to sit here throwing stones when we should instead be being proactive on this. In response to Wild about IA; We as IA don't really want to blow anything out of proportion by making a huge forum thread with the sole purpose to condemn the admins that tarnish TF's public view. Rather, we prefer to collect our efforts into looking at the various admins in question that we think are drastically lowering the quality of our staff roster. I feel like issuing a public statement to enforce admins to stop behaving like children is both absurd and unnecessary. I can tell you for sure that we're aware of multiple common offenders that have been misusing their responsibility as an admin, and are waiting for deeper examination before action should even be considered. Our goal here isn't to police people; only to evaluate and pursue action when absolutely necessary. That being said, my opinion on "admin expectations" is to just not act like a bigot lol. Freedom of speech is cool yadda yadda having fun with commands is fun just don't be a fucking chode and cry tyrant when you get caught with your pants down. Appreciate the response. I think my point was more, if it's that big of an issue, surely this is on IS or the EAO, given we've formed IA for a dedicated reason, and have an EAO, feels like 'Backseat Server Owning' for anyone else to be making these threads, and that was what I'm challenging here. If there is an actual problem, it should be being either dealt with there and then, or escalated to EAO and yourselves, as that's my understanding of one of the reasons you've been formed as an 'Entity'
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 16:27:59 GMT
Admin information isn't just for "official" posts, as per the forums description. Admin announcements would be where the strictly official forum threads would go. This post re-iterating administrative expectations should without a doubt belong in admin information, as it is, information for admins. I am also not stating anything "new" in what I said, I'm simply re-iterating an already official point. Just to clarify what I meant by "sociopolitical" discussion in-game: Sociopolitical conversation on this forum is by all means welcomed. We have an effective system in place making sure deep discussion is more or less clean, factual, and on-topic. The sociopolitical conversation I'm referring to in-game relates to admins doing just the opposite. I don't mean to name names here, but here's a typical example embodying this: OP 1: Gay people shouldn't be allowed to use the same restrooms as straight people because our brains are wired differently, Admin 1: Yeah lollll gay people shouldn't be allowed to use the same restrooms as straight people because straight people are superior. Gay people make me uncomfortable lmaooo. OP 2: I'm gay and I think this discussion is complete bullshit, I am shocked that an admin agrees with this. Admin 1: You're a snowflake, if you're offended, leave. While I agree that everyone is entitled to an opinion, this is the "sociopolitical" discussion I was referring too. Personally, restricting admins from partaking in conversations like this doesn't at all restrict their freedom. If anything, having admins partake in this type of speech limits the freedom of marginalized OPs. I think it's important though to clarify that these are 'Your Expectations'. They're not 'Official' or seemingly documented anywhere else, that was perhaps more of the point I Was getting at. I could make a thread with my expectations of what admins should do, but it wouldn't make it any more or less official than yours. I personally feel it's inappropriate to make such a thread when there are people here who's literal role it is to manage admins... Just feels like toe treading and further removing the need for IA / EAO if every senior admin is going to just spout their own expectations. Frankly, I appreciate the 'Problem' with your example, but I strongly disagree with censoring the opinions of an admin so as not to offend an OP... Is there anything in the conduct policy that restricts an OP from expressing that opinion? Until there is, I would argue that we should not be telling the admins they may not participate in a discussion. I will however agree that there is a difference between 'Civil Discussion' and 'Being a wanker' and that's a fine line to cross, but I think other admins should be able to hold admins to account. If a senior is online and seeing this conversation they are well within their rights to suspend the admin and give them a tongue lashing if they're being abusive towards an OP, but up until the last comment on your example, I'd argue that conversation is perfectly acceptable to take place. Everyone is entitled to express an opinion, and as soon as we change that approach, we know we've gone and fucked this server up. This has nothing to do with the opinions of OPs, Ops can say whatever they'd like as long as it falls within our /rules. This has everything to do with the opinion of administrators. I'm sorry man, but administrators represent our server everywhere they go. Admins are the face of TF, whether you'd like it or not. I frankly don't care if telling administrators that they can't partake in conversations rooted in prejudice as to not isolate LGBTQ OPs limits Wild1145's sense of freedom. I just don't care, it's a bad look all around for us, especially for a growing server. When you say " I could make a thread with my expectations of what admins should do, but it wouldn't make it any more or less official than yours.", these is clearly a moot point, also if I may ask, why are you so suddenly disrespectful? For an OP that started playing the server last week, I'd expect more from you. The role of server liaison specifically means my team and I are the people sole responsible for the PR and growth of this community... In any retrospect. Sure, my expectations may not be "binding" as I'm not the EAO, but that doesn't make them any less valid. As we've mentioned before, Administrators are the face of this community, and as an executive who controls the PR, player experience and growth of this community, I most definitely have some say in how these ambassadors should act towards the community of this server in order to maintain steady growth and a nice fun, experience we've all come to know and love. I will not be discussing this further, as this thread will not be hijacked further. If you have any specific questions, comments or concerns to my role as the ESL, please do not hesitate to contact me or my team, our DMs are always open. Regards
|
|
|
Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jun 9, 2020 16:32:28 GMT
I think it's important though to clarify that these are 'Your Expectations'. They're not 'Official' or seemingly documented anywhere else, that was perhaps more of the point I Was getting at. I could make a thread with my expectations of what admins should do, but it wouldn't make it any more or less official than yours. I personally feel it's inappropriate to make such a thread when there are people here who's literal role it is to manage admins... Just feels like toe treading and further removing the need for IA / EAO if every senior admin is going to just spout their own expectations. Frankly, I appreciate the 'Problem' with your example, but I strongly disagree with censoring the opinions of an admin so as not to offend an OP... Is there anything in the conduct policy that restricts an OP from expressing that opinion? Until there is, I would argue that we should not be telling the admins they may not participate in a discussion. I will however agree that there is a difference between 'Civil Discussion' and 'Being a wanker' and that's a fine line to cross, but I think other admins should be able to hold admins to account. If a senior is online and seeing this conversation they are well within their rights to suspend the admin and give them a tongue lashing if they're being abusive towards an OP, but up until the last comment on your example, I'd argue that conversation is perfectly acceptable to take place. Everyone is entitled to express an opinion, and as soon as we change that approach, we know we've gone and fucked this server up. This has nothing to do with the opinions of OPs, Ops can say whatever they'd like as long as it falls within our /rules. This has everything to do with the opinion of administrators. I'm sorry man, but administrators represent our server everywhere they go. Admins are the face of TF, whether you'd like it or not. I frankly don't care if telling administrators that they can't partake in conversations rooted in prejudice as to not isolate LGBTQ OPs limits Wild1145's sense of freedom. I just don't care, it's a bad look all around for us, especially for a growing server. When you say " I could make a thread with my expectations of what admins should do, but it wouldn't make it any more or less official than yours.", these is clearly a moot point, also if I may ask, why are you so suddenly disrespectful? For an OP that started playing the server last week, I'd expect more from you. The role of server liaison specifically means my team and I are the people sole responsible for the PR and growth of this community... In any retrospect. Sure, my expectations may not be "binding" as I'm not the EAO, but that doesn't make them any less valid. As we've mentioned before, Administrators are the face of this community, and as an executive who controls the PR, player experience and growth of this community, I most definitely have some say in how these ambassadors should act towards the community of this server in order to maintain steady growth and a nice fun, experience we've all come to know and love. I will not be discussing this further, as this thread will not be hijacked further. If you have any specific questions, comments or concerns to my role as the ESL, please do not hesitate to contact me or my team, our DMs are always open. Regards What is the "some say" you are speaking of? Just because you hold an executive position doesn't mean you can make up your own rules to suspend people.
|
|
Wild1145
Club 4000 Member
Inactive Player & Inactive Senior Admin
Posts: 10,414
| Likes: 9,680
|
Post by Wild1145 on Jun 9, 2020 16:37:09 GMT
I think it's important though to clarify that these are 'Your Expectations'. They're not 'Official' or seemingly documented anywhere else, that was perhaps more of the point I Was getting at. I could make a thread with my expectations of what admins should do, but it wouldn't make it any more or less official than yours. I personally feel it's inappropriate to make such a thread when there are people here who's literal role it is to manage admins... Just feels like toe treading and further removing the need for IA / EAO if every senior admin is going to just spout their own expectations. Frankly, I appreciate the 'Problem' with your example, but I strongly disagree with censoring the opinions of an admin so as not to offend an OP... Is there anything in the conduct policy that restricts an OP from expressing that opinion? Until there is, I would argue that we should not be telling the admins they may not participate in a discussion. I will however agree that there is a difference between 'Civil Discussion' and 'Being a wanker' and that's a fine line to cross, but I think other admins should be able to hold admins to account. If a senior is online and seeing this conversation they are well within their rights to suspend the admin and give them a tongue lashing if they're being abusive towards an OP, but up until the last comment on your example, I'd argue that conversation is perfectly acceptable to take place. Everyone is entitled to express an opinion, and as soon as we change that approach, we know we've gone and fucked this server up. This has nothing to do with the opinions of OPs, Ops can say whatever they'd like as long as it falls within our /rules. This has everything to do with the opinion of administrators. I'm sorry man, but administrators represent our server everywhere they go. Admins are the face of TF, whether you'd like it or not. I frankly don't care if telling administrators that they can't partake in conversations rooted in prejudice as to not isolate LGBTQ OPs limits Wild1145's sense of freedom. I just don't care, it's a bad look all around for us, especially for a growing server. When you say " I could make a thread with my expectations of what admins should do, but it wouldn't make it any more or less official than yours.", these is clearly a moot point, also if I may ask, why are you so suddenly disrespectful? For an OP that started playing the server last week, I'd expect more from you. The role of server liaison specifically means my team and I are the people sole responsible for the PR and growth of this community... In any retrospect. Sure, my expectations may not be "binding" as I'm not the EAO, but that doesn't make them any less valid. As we've mentioned before, Administrators are the face of this community, and as an executive who controls the PR, player experience and growth of this community, I most definitely have some say in how these ambassadors should act towards the community of this server in order to maintain steady growth and a nice fun, experience we've all come to know and love. I will not be discussing this further, as this thread will not be hijacked further. If you have any specific questions, comments or concerns to my role as the ESL, please do not hesitate to contact me or my team, our DMs are always open. Regards The conduct policy applies to all players equally, the fact you're now making up your own rules for admins deeply concerns me, it's oppressive and frankly I challenge that you had the authority to even make that call, your right that this is not about the opinion of the OP, but to suppress an admins opinion because it's bad PR is even worse PR. I would argue it's not a moot point, it's exactly what you've done here. Your role does not entitle you to make demands of admins, it's to organize other servers associated with TF... I fail to see how your role has any right to change the conduct policy for certain groups of people at a wim. I am also not being disrespectful, I think I've shown you a lot of understanding and tolerance after some of the attitude and frankly unnecessary behavior you've recently exhibited towards me. I'm an OP that's been on this server since 2012, am an Inactive Senior admin and a TFM Developer I think I have the right to call people out on their shit when I think their chatting nonsense, again, all perfectly within the conduct rules. I'll also say, for the record, you can expect what you want from me, but you are just another senior admin, you'll come, you'll go and you'll be replaced by someone else in a few months. It's the nature of this game. I will follow the conduct policy, and if anyone has any additional expectations, please expect disappointment. Your role should encompass how admins may present themselves on other official associated servers, but it's down to the EAO to handle the admins on TF, anything else is treading on toes as far as I can see. Ironically you've ignored all of the other points on my original post in response to this, most of which were actually fairly trivial, but you decided to lock on to the one that would cause a controversy. It's all relevant to this topic, so I don't feel it appropriate to send it to a DM just for the sake of saving your face.
|
|
|
Post by DragonSlayer2189 on Jun 9, 2020 18:17:38 GMT
but it's down to the EAO to handle the admins on TF, anything else is treading on toes as far as I can see. ik this doesnt rly relate to the argument too much, but as someone who is helping ia with this, the eao may or may not be on the list of people that have done it
|
|
fionn
Club 4000 Member
Admin Officer
elmon sucks
Posts: 6,157
| Likes: 4,775
|
Post by fionn on Jun 9, 2020 18:24:27 GMT
but it's down to the EAO to handle the admins on TF, anything else is treading on toes as far as I can see. ik this doesnt rly relate to the argument too much, but as someone who is helping ia with this, the eao may or may not be on the list of people that have done it Dude half the admin list have done it. Literally half, I counted.
|
|
|
Post by DragonSlayer2189 on Jun 9, 2020 18:26:57 GMT
ik this doesnt rly relate to the argument too much, but as someone who is helping ia with this, the eao may or may not be on the list of people that have done it Dude half the admin list have done it. Literally half, I counted. yes, half the admin list a.k.a. all of the active ones
|
|
Zaid
Veteran Member
When it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."
Posts: 3,007
|
Post by Zaid on Jun 9, 2020 18:51:54 GMT
Dude half the admin list have done it. Literally half, I counted. yes, half the admin list a.k.a. all of the active ones Yeah let’s report all of our active admins to IA, great call! No offense, but you’re coming off as extremely arrogant in this thread. I don’t see what you benefit by saying things like “yes I have a list of all the mean things every admin said INCLUDING the eao”. There’s a clear cut difference between breaking the conduct policy and what you and Wize are talking about. Being mean doesn’t necessarily mean that any rules were broken or than any sanctions are needed. Also digging through logs for dirt on every admin is pretty weird lol
|
|
|
Post by DragonSlayer2189 on Jun 9, 2020 18:56:02 GMT
yes, half the admin list a.k.a. all of the active ones Yeah let’s report all of our active admins to IA, great call! No offense, but you’re coming off as extremely arrogant in this thread. I don’t see what you benefit by saying things like “yes I have a list of all the mean things every admin said INCLUDING the eao”. There’s a clear cut difference between breaking the conduct policy and what you and Wize are talking about. Being mean doesn’t necessarily mean that any rules were broken or than any sanctions are needed. Also digging through logs for dirt on every admin is pretty weird lol i talked about this earlier, thats not what i mean, and not everyone will be serverly punished, just the ones who have actualy done this to the point at which it can be considered truely abusive and missuse, like i said earlier i will be making a thread about this sooner or latter, but im not going to rush IA's, or my own, investigative process
|
|
fionn
Club 4000 Member
Admin Officer
elmon sucks
Posts: 6,157
| Likes: 4,775
|
Post by fionn on Jun 9, 2020 19:03:58 GMT
Yeah let’s report all of our active admins to IA, great call! No offense, but you’re coming off as extremely arrogant in this thread. I don’t see what you benefit by saying things like “yes I have a list of all the mean things every admin said INCLUDING the eao”. There’s a clear cut difference between breaking the conduct policy and what you and Wize are talking about. Being mean doesn’t necessarily mean that any rules were broken or than any sanctions are needed. Also digging through logs for dirt on every admin is pretty weird lol i talked about this earlier, thats not what i mean, and not everyone will be serverly punished, just the ones who have actualy done this to the point at which it can be considered truely abusive and missuse, like i said earlier i will be making a thread about this sooner or latter, but im not going to rush IA's, or my own, investigative process IA already confirmed that there was going to be no action taken as of now.
|
|
|
Post by DragonSlayer2189 on Jun 9, 2020 19:57:26 GMT
i talked about this earlier, thats not what i mean, and not everyone will be serverly punished, just the ones who have actualy done this to the point at which it can be considered truely abusive and missuse, like i said earlier i will be making a thread about this sooner or latter, but im not going to rush IA's, or my own, investigative process IA already confirmed that there was going to be no action taken as of now. yes, that is why i was saying that im not gonna rush IA, there is still more invesigation to be done: I can tell you for sure that we're aware of multiple common offenders that have been misusing their responsibility as an admin, and are waiting for deeper examination before action should even be considered. Our goal here isn't to police people; only to evaluate and pursue action when absolutely necessary.
|
|