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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on May 19, 2020 23:37:03 GMT
If this were to get implemented, it won't apply to you bud.
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97
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Post by 97 on May 19, 2020 23:38:37 GMT
as i fricking said before, this is not about me, this is about other OPs in general because there's been an increase of OPs with mental health problems and honestly just frick off please, you're just trying to get me to rage I'll respond In the most non-chalant way I can. It seemed as if you were trying to add this to have your permban be a temporary ban in my perspective, and personally people who have mental problems and that are causing trouble should be permbanned. Also, your suggestion open to the public, so I can vote on it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 23:39:56 GMT
as i fricking said before, this is not about me, this is about other OPs in general because there's been an increase of OPs with mental health problems and honestly just frick off please, you're just trying to get me to rage I'll respond In the most non-chalant way I can. It seemed as if you were trying to add this to have your permban be a temporary ban in my perspective, and personally people who have mental problems and that are causing trouble should be permbanned. Also, your suggestion open to the public, so I can vote on it. no point acting 'non-chalant' now, you've sparked me where in that picture did you vote
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97
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Post by 97 on May 19, 2020 23:40:49 GMT
where in that picture did you vote I voted on the poll because you included that as an option
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zeseryu
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Post by zeseryu on May 19, 2020 23:43:08 GMT
We should really just change the name of permban to indefinite ban. We let permban users return as early as a month most times if they show actual remorse and change. I think it would clear up a lot of confusion if language was "indefinite." We do this currently with admin suspensions, there's really no time frame to say when a person is rehabilitated and a net positive for the server.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on May 19, 2020 23:46:13 GMT
We should really just change the name of permban to indefinite ban. We let permban users return as early as a month most times if they show actual remorse and change. I think it would clear up a lot of confusion if language was "indefinite." We do this currently with admin suspensions, there's really no time frame to say when a person is rehabilitated and a net positive for the server. Interesting, I was actually thinking of the exact opposite of this where rather than having an indefinite ban, we have a definite ban rather than just a permban which is set to expire at a certain timeframe, but that timeframe is configurable. An admin posting a ban request could suggest an expiration date of 1 week, 3 weeks, 1 month, 4 months, what have you, in addition to the "permanent" option which would expire whenever we next opt to purge the permban list (which we last did back in January, I'd say we should continue doing that either every 6 months or every 12 months).
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zeseryu
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Post by zeseryu on May 19, 2020 23:54:21 GMT
We should really just change the name of permban to indefinite ban. We let permban users return as early as a month most times if they show actual remorse and change. I think it would clear up a lot of confusion if language was "indefinite." We do this currently with admin suspensions, there's really no time frame to say when a person is rehabilitated and a net positive for the server. Interesting, I was actually thinking of the exact opposite of this where rather than having an indefinite ban, we have a definite ban rather than just a permban which is set to expire at a certain timeframe, but that timeframe is configurable. An admin posting a ban request could suggest an expiration date of 1 week, 3 weeks, 1 month, 4 months, what have you, in addition to the "permanent" option which would expire whenever we next opt to purge the permban list (which we last did back in January, I'd say we should continue doing that either every 6 months or every 12 months). The only issue i see with that is who ultimately decided the time frame. Lets say an Admin posts a definite perm ban request of 3 weeks, i think the OP deserves a definite ban of 2 months, and another admin thinks they should only get a week. We currently dont have that language in our conduct policy to decide on the exact time frame. This is very similar to Admin reinstatement returns, where if the applicant left on bad terms they have to work their way up to their previous rank, but the time frame is left vague and is ultimately decided by the Admin Officer because reinstatement are relegated to them. Im not opposing your idea, just asking how do decide handle who makes the final judgement call?
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on May 19, 2020 23:56:52 GMT
Interesting, I was actually thinking of the exact opposite of this where rather than having an indefinite ban, we have a definite ban rather than just a permban which is set to expire at a certain timeframe, but that timeframe is configurable. An admin posting a ban request could suggest an expiration date of 1 week, 3 weeks, 1 month, 4 months, what have you, in addition to the "permanent" option which would expire whenever we next opt to purge the permban list (which we last did back in January, I'd say we should continue doing that either every 6 months or every 12 months). The only issue i see with that is who ultimately decided the time frame. Lets say an Admin posts a definite perm ban request of 3 weeks, i think the OP deserves a definite ban of 2 months, and another admin thinks they should only get a week. We currently dont have that language in our conduct policy to decide on the exact time frame. This is very similar to Admin reinstatement returns, where if the applicant left on bad terms they have to work their way up to their previous rank, but the time frame is left vague and is ultimately decided by the Admin Officer because reinstatement are relegated to them. Im not opposing your idea, just asking how do decide handle who makes the final judgement call? We now have the title of perm ban manager, one role to delegate to that would be to come up with a final compromise/consensus. If a lot of people vouch for 1 week, a bunch vouch for 4, they can make it 2 or 3, as long as it's something reasonable.
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fionn
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Post by fionn on May 19, 2020 23:57:48 GMT
Interesting, I was actually thinking of the exact opposite of this where rather than having an indefinite ban, we have a definite ban rather than just a permban which is set to expire at a certain timeframe, but that timeframe is configurable. An admin posting a ban request could suggest an expiration date of 1 week, 3 weeks, 1 month, 4 months, what have you, in addition to the "permanent" option which would expire whenever we next opt to purge the permban list (which we last did back in January, I'd say we should continue doing that either every 6 months or every 12 months). The only issue i see with that is who ultimately decided the time frame. Lets say an Admin posts a definite perm ban request of 3 weeks, i think the OP deserves a definite ban of 2 months, and another admin thinks they should only get a week. We currently dont have that language in our conduct policy to decide on the exact time frame. This is very similar to Admin reinstatement returns, where if the applicant left on bad terms they have to work their way up to their previous rank, but the time frame is left vague and is ultimately decided by the Admin Officer because reinstatement are relegated to them. Im not opposing your idea, just asking how do decide handle who makes the final judgement call? I assume if we have a set time frames, e.g. 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 2 months etc, then when the voting process would take place the administrators could vote for the timeframe they believe is most suitable. E.g. "I vouch for a 2 month ban because..." etc
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 23:59:36 GMT
The only issue i see with that is who ultimately decided the time frame. Lets say an Admin posts a definite perm ban request of 3 weeks, i think the OP deserves a definite ban of 2 months, and another admin thinks they should only get a week. We currently dont have that language in our conduct policy to decide on the exact time frame. This is very similar to Admin reinstatement returns, where if the applicant left on bad terms they have to work their way up to their previous rank, but the time frame is left vague and is ultimately decided by the Admin Officer because reinstatement are relegated to them. Im not opposing your idea, just asking how do decide handle who makes the final judgement call? I assume if we have a set time frames, e.g. 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 2 months etc, then when the voting process would take place the administrators could vote for the timeframe they believe is most suitable. E.g. "I vouch for a 2 month ban because..." etc Just like how it worked with drifter, he didn't get pbanned he got a formal warning after some decision making
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zeseryu
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Post by zeseryu on May 20, 2020 0:04:49 GMT
The only issue i see with that is who ultimately decided the time frame. Lets say an Admin posts a definite perm ban request of 3 weeks, i think the OP deserves a definite ban of 2 months, and another admin thinks they should only get a week. We currently dont have that language in our conduct policy to decide on the exact time frame. This is very similar to Admin reinstatement returns, where if the applicant left on bad terms they have to work their way up to their previous rank, but the time frame is left vague and is ultimately decided by the Admin Officer because reinstatement are relegated to them. Im not opposing your idea, just asking how do decide handle who makes the final judgement call? We now have the title of perm ban manager, one role to delegate to that would be to come up with a final compromise/consensus. If a lot of people vouch for 1 week, a bunch vouch for 4, they can make it 2 or 3, as long as it's something reasonable. Ah completely forgot about the perm ban manager. I do have a slight issue in definite ban appeals being an overall "compromise" however. We already see this in permban ban requests with weak evidence that dont have enough to approve the request getting vouches, and permban requests with irrefutable evidence getting objects. We currently get a lot of inconsistency even with the permban request language being very specific in what actually qualifies. Overall i would be much more comfortable with a system where a request is submitted, vouched/objected on like currently, and then the Perm ban manager gives a time frame based on the evidence posted. It's not that I dont trust our admins judgment, but you wouldn't give a cashier the keys to the forklift if they weren't qualified to actually operate the forklift (dumb example but yunno)
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zeseryu
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Post by zeseryu on May 20, 2020 0:08:15 GMT
I assume if we have a set time frames, e.g. 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 2 months etc, then when the voting process would take place the administrators could vote for the timeframe they believe is most suitable. E.g. "I vouch for a 2 month ban because..." etc Just like how it worked with drifter, he didn't get pbanned he got a formal warning after some decision making This is actually not at all how it worked with drifter, he got a warning and a day ban because he committed offenses in both section 2 and section 3 of our conduct policy. A permban request should have never been filed because it lacked sufficient evidence to even submit one. One issue i see with opening up a poll for each "definite permban request" is how long it would take. How long would the entire process be before the decision was made? Days? Weeks?
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Post by Captainclimber on May 20, 2020 4:41:44 GMT
I suggest instead of voting on the time someone should be punished for, we should just treat permbans as monthly bans instead. No discussion would be needed to decide the length. The only discussion would be if the month ban is fit or not to the associated OP on a ban request.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on May 21, 2020 2:18:44 GMT
We now have the title of perm ban manager, one role to delegate to that would be to come up with a final compromise/consensus. If a lot of people vouch for 1 week, a bunch vouch for 4, they can make it 2 or 3, as long as it's something reasonable. Overall i would be much more comfortable with a system where a request is submitted, vouched/objected on like currently, and then the Perm ban manager gives a time frame based on the evidence posted. It's not that I dont trust our admins judgment, but you wouldn't give a cashier the keys to the forklift if they weren't qualified to actually operate the forklift (dumb example but yunno) The issue I have with this is that the permban manager is the difference between somebody getting banned for a week and somebody getting banned for a year. Maybe the poster of the request should submit a range of timeframes along with their template, with other admins being able to voice their opinion, and from there the permban manager casts a final decision?
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zeseryu
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Post by zeseryu on May 21, 2020 2:23:16 GMT
Overall i would be much more comfortable with a system where a request is submitted, vouched/objected on like currently, and then the Perm ban manager gives a time frame based on the evidence posted. It's not that I dont trust our admins judgment, but you wouldn't give a cashier the keys to the forklift if they weren't qualified to actually operate the forklift (dumb example but yunno) The issue I have with this is that the permban manager is the difference between somebody getting banned for a week and somebody getting banned for a year. Maybe the poster of the request should submit a range of timeframes along with their template, with other admins being able to voice their opinion, and from there the permban manager casts a final decision? I think thats good compromise, its essentially our current system except the permban manager actually can choose a timeframe rather than "permanent (indefinite)" If you did want to give the permban manager the ability of choosing a week or a year, I would highly push for the permban manager to be an executive position. They of course would be subject to criticism and could be removed if they abused their power.
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