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Post by Telesphoreo on Apr 29, 2020 16:49:17 GMT
how is this different than teachers having a teachers lounge or a staff having the staff lounge? i object. normal customers aren't allowed to go in there or "spectate it" it so why should it be different here
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Darth
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Post by Darth on Apr 29, 2020 16:49:51 GMT
Putting OPs in spectator mode would mean that anyone could bypass tptoggle by going to adminworld and using the teleport feature. If this can be remedied, then I will change my vote. This is correct. I've had to copy-paste this list I created a few times already: Spectator mode... - has a teleportation feature that overrides /tptoggle
- allows you to set your flying speed high enough to lag the server without using mods or /speed
- causes console spam if you use a teleport command while spectating someone
- makes you invisible to admins who aren't in spectator mode themselves
- allows you to see admins who are hiding in spectator mode
- puts you into a death loop if your flying is disabled
All of those issues would have to be addressed for this to be practical. As for the flying speed, wouldn’t that be solved by the feature that stops you from going at speeds that lag the server?
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miwo
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Post by miwo on Apr 29, 2020 16:50:32 GMT
We are not talking about letting Ops build, so why do you keep bringing this up? For sake of keeping this thread on topic and not derailing it, let's continue this in PMs if you have a further issue here. Our conversation is indeed centered on the topic of making AW public,, so I don't get why you want to continue it in the PMs. We are not talking about letting Ops build, so why do you keep bringing this up? Nice try What am I "trying"? Are you implying that I am being disingenuous, despite me not haing been condescending to you. We are not talking about letting Ops build, so why do you keep bringing this up? I wasn't arguing against the original proposition with this, I was replying to what Inpace said (specifically the "In addition" part). I don't think I mentioned OPs building in the adminworld in relation to the original proposition at all, I was replying to your comment "The reason trust matters in this situation is because if you do end up griefing, and taking advantage of my trust, that reflects badly on me". We are not talking about letting Ops build, so why do you keep bringing this up? so I don't know what you're talking about when you say I "keep bringing this up." I don't know why I said that last part. I must've had a stroke in the midl
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mattlawn
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Post by mattlawn on Apr 29, 2020 17:47:53 GMT
Putting OPs in spectator mode would mean that anyone could bypass tptoggle by going to adminworld and using the teleport feature. If this can be remedied, then I will change my vote. they can still load chunks and blow up the map size
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Apr 29, 2020 18:13:21 GMT
how is this different than teachers having a teachers lounge or a staff having the staff lounge? i object. normal customers aren't allowed to go in there or "spectate it" it so why should it be different here False equivalency. The adminworld is no different than any other world except that only admins are provided access to it and the map is permanent (which I believe is the case for the master builder world as well). A better analogy would be having a particular aisle in a grocery store only accessible to staff.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Apr 29, 2020 18:25:40 GMT
Funny how all of these concerns are brought up when it's about the adminworld and not the master builder world. You can't have your cake and eat it too on this one, the adminworld must be absolutely protected from any form of peasant interference, but in the case of the master builder world, who the hell cares what happens to that world? Either we create some consistency by having them both open to spectators, or close them both off. If we go with the former, then it's an inherent increase in player freedom by allowing them to view the world. If we go with the latter, then for one thing I don't want to see the people objecting crying about "player freedom" in the future when it's about something different, and also at that point I'd say we should get rid of the master builder world entirely because why have it if it's ignored by the admins and closed away entirely from players?
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burger
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fionn is overated
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Post by burger on Apr 29, 2020 21:51:40 GMT
Funny how all of these concerns are brought up when it's about the adminworld and not the master builder world. You can't have your cake and eat it too on this one, the adminworld must be absolutely protected from any form of peasant interference, but in the case of the master builder world, who the hell cares what happens to that world? Either we create some consistency by having them both open to spectators, or close them both off. If we go with the former, then it's an inherent increase in player freedom by allowing them to view the world. If we go with the latter, then for one thing I don't want to see the people objecting crying about "player freedom" in the future when it's about something different, and also at that point I'd say we should get rid of the master builder world entirely because why have it if it's ignored by the admins and closed away entirely from players? If we get rid of the mbw then mb's really do have nothing. Until recently they didn't even have the tools necessary to actually build. The mb rank on this server, I feel, doesn't get the love it deserves. Building is something that not everyone can do and yet we treat our master builders as if they were pheasants. The master builder rank doesn't feature anything, unless of course you count the mbw which is the very thing you are proposing to remove. I mean heck a mb is still considered an op which tells me that their rank is completely ignored by most and because of that I don't think it's a good to remove even more of the little they have.
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Darth
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Post by Darth on Apr 29, 2020 22:05:34 GMT
Funny how all of these concerns are brought up when it's about the adminworld and not the master builder world. You can't have your cake and eat it too on this one, the adminworld must be absolutely protected from any form of peasant interference, but in the case of the master builder world, who the hell cares what happens to that world? Either we create some consistency by having them both open to spectators, or close them both off. If we go with the former, then it's an inherent increase in player freedom by allowing them to view the world. If we go with the latter, then for one thing I don't want to see the people objecting crying about "player freedom" in the future when it's about something different, and also at that point I'd say we should get rid of the master builder world entirely because why have it if it's ignored by the admins and closed away entirely from players? we treat our master builders as if they were pheasants.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Apr 29, 2020 22:11:35 GMT
Funny how all of these concerns are brought up when it's about the adminworld and not the master builder world. You can't have your cake and eat it too on this one, the adminworld must be absolutely protected from any form of peasant interference, but in the case of the master builder world, who the hell cares what happens to that world? Either we create some consistency by having them both open to spectators, or close them both off. If we go with the former, then it's an inherent increase in player freedom by allowing them to view the world. If we go with the latter, then for one thing I don't want to see the people objecting crying about "player freedom" in the future when it's about something different, and also at that point I'd say we should get rid of the master builder world entirely because why have it if it's ignored by the admins and closed away entirely from players? If we get rid of the mbw then mb's really do have nothing. Until recently they didn't even have the tools necessary to actually build. The mb rank on this server, I feel, doesn't get the love it deserves. Building is something that not everyone can do and yet we treat our master builders as if they were pheasants. The master builder rank doesn't feature anything, unless of course you count the mbw which is the very thing you are proposing to remove. I mean heck a mb is still considered an op which tells me that their rank is completely ignored by most and because of that I don't think it's a good to remove even more of the little they have. Exactly, so why does everyone here get all uptight when somebody wants to let the dirty nasty peasants into the adminworld, but when players were allowed access to the master builder world nobody cared about all these exploits?
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zeseryu
Veteran Member
Admin Officer
ops rights activist
Posts: 1,181
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Post by zeseryu on Apr 29, 2020 22:15:59 GMT
Funny how all of these concerns are brought up when it's about the adminworld and not the master builder world. You can't have your cake and eat it too on this one, the adminworld must be absolutely protected from any form of peasant interference, but in the case of the master builder world, who the hell cares what happens to that world? Either we create some consistency by having them both open to spectators, or close them both off. If we go with the former, then it's an inherent increase in player freedom by allowing them to view the world. If we go with the latter, then for one thing I don't want to see the people objecting crying about "player freedom" in the future when it's about something different, and also at that point I'd say we should get rid of the master builder world entirely because why have it if it's ignored by the admins and closed away entirely from players? If we get rid of the mbw then mb's really do have nothing. Until recently they didn't even have the tools necessary to actually build. The mb rank on this server, I feel, doesn't get the love it deserves. Building is something that not everyone can do and yet we treat our master builders as if they were pheasants. The master builder rank doesn't feature anything, unless of course you count the mbw which is the very thing you are proposing to remove. I mean heck a mb is still considered an op which tells me that their rank is completely ignored by most and because of that I don't think it's a good to remove even more of the little they have. You're treated the way you are because the rank implies nothing more than you can build well. No regular player sees the effect MB has had on the server. Spawns are created by random members and frequently changed. What exactly have MBs done to deserve being treated above regular operations? Even then, whats so wrong about being considered equal to the vast majority of our players (operators)?
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Apr 29, 2020 22:27:43 GMT
If we get rid of the mbw then mb's really do have nothing. Until recently they didn't even have the tools necessary to actually build. The mb rank on this server, I feel, doesn't get the love it deserves. Building is something that not everyone can do and yet we treat our master builders as if they were pheasants. The master builder rank doesn't feature anything, unless of course you count the mbw which is the very thing you are proposing to remove. I mean heck a mb is still considered an op which tells me that their rank is completely ignored by most and because of that I don't think it's a good to remove even more of the little they have. You're treated the way you are because the rank implies nothing more than you can build well. No regular player sees the effect MB has had on the server. Spawns are created by random members and frequently changed. What exactly have MBs done to deserve being treated above regular operations? Even then, whats so wrong about being considered equal to the vast majority of our players (operators)? Then why do we have a master builder world, or the rank at all?
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zeseryu
Veteran Member
Admin Officer
ops rights activist
Posts: 1,181
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Post by zeseryu on Apr 29, 2020 22:39:49 GMT
You're treated the way you are because the rank implies nothing more than you can build well. No regular player sees the effect MB has had on the server. Spawns are created by random members and frequently changed. What exactly have MBs done to deserve being treated above regular operations? Even then, whats so wrong about being considered equal to the vast majority of our players (operators)? Then why do we have a master builder world, or the rank at all? I don't know haha. To be honest, from my reinstatement in 2018, MB has been near invisible and useless. Whether thats from poor management to lack of necessary tools, im not sure. The result is the same.
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Post by zevante on Apr 29, 2020 23:03:49 GMT
MB world and rank is objectively useless other than giving recognition to our esteemed builders. To be honest, it would be kinda cool if we made MB world some kind of showcase world for other server owners to look at, and hire our Master Builders. That would at least give them a reason to stick around and proliferate. Would be cool to make a team we could dispatch representing Total Freedom; it would give our builders recognition for their impeccable works while also being a net positive for Total Freedom's public view.
Master Builder world is kind of just a playground for you guys, but I see a lot more potential in the rank/role itself.
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Zaid
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When it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."
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Post by Zaid on Apr 29, 2020 23:04:31 GMT
From my experience, I can say that many admins spend a substantial chunk of time in adminworld. This, in itself, isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as they respond when an OP asks for help, but one of the side effects it causes is a deep disconnect with the average TF player. As an admin, many of the builds I had in AW took multiple hours to make. However, even after years passed, I never worried that it would be griefed. This caused me to lack empathy for the average OP who spent the same amount of time building, if not more, and lost it to some griefer or flatlands reset.
Admins always bring up the "save your builds" argument but to be honest it isn't always realistic. Recently, I joined TF and I built a house in an amazing cave system that an OP had built. It was a huge collaborative project and I truly enjoyed adding something to it. Now, I can't realistically save the entire cave as schem to continue later on. It would be too large of a schematic and additionally it wouldn't have the same "magic" of a build that remained in a permanent place in a world and was constantly added to. Since then, I haven't played much on TF because it personally didn't appeal to me that I had to constantly save my builds in fear of a griefer. This is something that I never felt as an admin and it caused me to empathize with how most OPs felt while I sat on my "adminworld" throne for all those years.
This would be a great first step in the dissolution of the admin-OP disconnect. Adminworld isn't some secret club. If the thought of OPs merely viewing it bothers you, then you should really reevaluate why you became an admin in the first place.
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burger
Registered
fionn is overated
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Post by burger on Apr 29, 2020 23:12:31 GMT
If we get rid of the mbw then mb's really do have nothing. Until recently they didn't even have the tools necessary to actually build. The mb rank on this server, I feel, doesn't get the love it deserves. Building is something that not everyone can do and yet we treat our master builders as if they were pheasants. The master builder rank doesn't feature anything, unless of course you count the mbw which is the very thing you are proposing to remove. I mean heck a mb is still considered an op which tells me that their rank is completely ignored by most and because of that I don't think it's a good to remove even more of the little they have. You're treated the way you are because the rank implies nothing more than you can build well. No regular player sees the effect MB has had on the server. Spawns are created by random members and frequently changed. What exactly have MBs done to deserve being treated above regular operations? Even then, whats so wrong about being considered equal to the vast majority of our players (operators)? Maybe that could be changed if every fucking mb project doesn't get rejected, approved then rejected, or ignored. Im not saying we need anything more but why is it fair for us to lose more of the little we have.
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