grntbg
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Post by grntbg on Apr 15, 2020 1:33:24 GMT
No, people don't harass other people exclusively by means of distasteful language. If you're trying to say that censoring language which is commonly embedded in harassment is "the right way to go" then you should ban swearing. No, no it isn't. In my eyes it's a step backwards and a crappy patch sparked by a recent event. No but I've seen people get angry at people and say "YOU'RE A NIGGER FAGGOT" which is simply them using derogatory terms against minorities in an attempt to offend the other person. This is a huge step from saying "Fuck you" to someone you're upset at. That's the worst possible example you could provide because there's no way that people use the term "nigger faggot" with respect to their actual ethnicity or sexuality.
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1cloud_
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hi
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Post by 1cloud_ on Apr 15, 2020 1:35:56 GMT
Banning swearing doesn't end harassment, a lot of cases of bigotry use slurs because it's directly pointed at the person and intend to personally offend them. Yes, the notion that banning language doesn't end harassment was my point. It's why this policy will not be effective towards ending harassment. The majority of existing cases of "bigotry" (I don't know how you categorize this) embedding "slurs" (again...) into the sentence doesn't make the presence of slurs vital to there being poor behavior on the behalf of administrators. Most insults I've received for being transgender is generally somewhere along the lines of me being a "tranny", "shemale", "trap". Taking out these words from their arsenal can be a vital step to reducing these insults. You don't go up to fight Mike Tyson without a weapon, and if we take away some of what can be used as a weapon I believe we can definitely reduce the amount of discrimination within our community.
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grntbg
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Post by grntbg on Apr 15, 2020 1:38:47 GMT
Yes, the notion that banning language doesn't end harassment was my point. It's why this policy will not be effective towards ending harassment. The majority of existing cases of "bigotry" (I don't know how you categorize this) embedding "slurs" (again...) into the sentence doesn't make the presence of slurs vital to there being poor behavior on the behalf of administrators. Most insults I've received for being transgender is generally somewhere along the lines of me being a "tranny", "shemale", "trap". Taking out these words from their arsenal can be a vital step to reducing these insults. You don't go up to fight Mike Tyson without a weapon, and if we take away some of what can be used as a weapon I believe we can definitely reduce the amount of discrimination within our community. It can be but effectively it will not. People will openly express their opinions and contempt for others regardless of which words they're allowed to use. If anything, on a larger scale this will lead to the creation of esoteric nomenclature which will evade the eyes of administrators and people finding clever new ways to be a dick to people. If you're going to fight Mike the weapon you'll want are your fists, baby. Jokes aside, I don't really understand this comparison because language isn't used as a "weapon" but as a vessel of expression.
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elmon
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Post by elmon on Apr 15, 2020 1:45:21 GMT
Most insults I've received for being transgender is generally somewhere along the lines of me being a "tranny", "shemale", "trap". Taking out these words from their arsenal can be a vital step to reducing these insults. You don't go up to fight Mike Tyson without a weapon, and if we take away some of what can be used as a weapon I believe we can definitely reduce the amount of discrimination within our community. It can be but effectively it will not. People will openly express their opinions and contempt for others regardless of which words they're allowed to use. If anything, on a larger scale this will lead to the creation of esoteric nomenclature which will evade the eyes of administrators and people finding clever new ways to be a dick to people. This policy is not purely banning slurs, it is banning any kind of homophobia, transphobia racism etc. etc.
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grntbg
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Post by grntbg on Apr 15, 2020 1:47:05 GMT
It can be but effectively it will not. People will openly express their opinions and contempt for others regardless of which words they're allowed to use. If anything, on a larger scale this will lead to the creation of esoteric nomenclature which will evade the eyes of administrators and people finding clever new ways to be a dick to people. This policy is not purely banning slurs, it is banning any kind of homophobia, transphobia racism etc. etc. And the word "esoteric" means to be understood by few people i.e. not passing the bar set by this policy yet evading it which can be done pretty easily. Language restrictions are flimsy.
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elmon
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Post by elmon on Apr 15, 2020 1:52:03 GMT
This policy is not purely banning slurs, it is banning any kind of homophobia, transphobia racism etc. etc. And the word "esoteric" means to be understood by few people i.e. not passing the bar set by this policy yet evading it which can be done pretty easily. Language restrictions are flimsy. Can I get an example of how you would evade this policy because you clearly think you can? Again, we're not banning slurs specifically, rather racism and the rest along with the slurs that come with them.
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grntbg
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Post by grntbg on Apr 15, 2020 1:56:40 GMT
And the word "esoteric" means to be understood by few people i.e. not passing the bar set by this policy yet evading it which can be done pretty easily. Language restrictions are flimsy. Can I get an example of how you would evade this policy because you clearly think you can? Again, we're not banning slurs specifically, rather racism and the rest along with the slurs that come with them. By a: expressing distasteful thoughts in the manner of righteous opinions (because let's face it: "racism" and "homophobia" are not clear-cut terms which forbid certain conduct) and b: etwas offensichtliches tun, als würde man nicht so sprechen, wie man mich verstehen könnte. Having a policy which relies on an administrator's knowledge of the understanding of what things are "offensive" both enforces the leadership's opinion and sets a subjective standard. You have been banned for doing other really offensive things around those areas.
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ron
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Post by ron on Apr 15, 2020 1:58:55 GMT
My thoughts: to be honest total freedom ain’t the perfect place to bring up these types of things (dunno the word for it) but I do believe in this server that anyone can have their own opinions as long as they can express themselves appropriately. As admins we can’t just say what is allowed and what is not, it’s the Internet we can’t control what people say and what they believe in. Even if it’s trolling or just pettiness we shouldn’t put ourselves in situations that may cause drama or just start another flame war. Spread love instead of hatred
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Post by ???TheHour on Apr 15, 2020 3:04:36 GMT
As a freedom community the banning of these words doesn't reduce freedom what so ever - it promotes it. "Freedom, generally, is having the ability to act or change without constraint. Something is "free" if it can change easily and is not constrained in its present state." The use of these slurs can take away ones freedom to express themselves. You saying these slurs doesn't give you more freedom of speech, you can find other words to formulate sentences. The use of these words have history, and with history comes various pain. I'm not saying burn anyone at the stake for the use when theres valid context (which isn't very often to be fair) but I think they don't have a place in a community where people are supposed to be able to be themselves. Freedom doesn't just advocate for building and doing what you want but it also advocates for the ability to be yourself, something which these words generally discourage. Essentially, there are other words you can say. You can tell someone to fuck off if you want but calling them a "n*****" isn't going to change anything other then discourage people from being themselves.
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markbyron
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Post by markbyron on Apr 15, 2020 3:26:43 GMT
I think I'll check in on this one and it's just my two cents as your very inactive server founder. When I was active as the owner, there was always specific rules on racism and slurs not being tolerated (both server & forum) and it's really in line with the total freedom concept. Racism has always been about denying people their freedom & human rights; it's anti-freedom. Also, I had referenced the Proboards Community guidelines which specifically state, "Promotes or glorifies racial intolerance, uses hate and/or racist terms, or signifies hate towards any person or group of people" There's numerous other community guidelines which the TF forum is obliged to follow as long as they use Proboards - see www.proboards.com/community-guidelinesAlso, I wrote the following in 2015 and while some could rightly say I was suppressing speech, it was really about getting people to be civil & intelligently debate each other when they disagree as opposed to just throwing out slurs and hate. It is a hard balancing act though and understand when Seth says please forgive me. By the, I had included religion in this because there was a fair bit of division at that time. "Total Freedom is a server that welcomes anybody regardless of race, religion (inc. non-religious like Atheists), orientation, and political ideology; Total Freedom does not have a preference for any race, religion, orientation, or political ideology.
That doesn't mean we'll be holding hands and embracing each other; there is & will be friction between those of opposing beliefs but disagreement must be civil & respectful. Use of slurs and showing contempt will not convince anybody that you're right; quite the opposite in fact. If you can't express yourself intelligently and with respect, you're potentially violating our guidelines as well as admin rules of respect. Whether it's the server or the deep discussion forum, If we learn to intelligently and respectfully disagree with each other, perhaps you'll find common ground but if the discussion devolves into name calling, slurs, personal attacks, and hate, take a time out and if you're an admin, put a stop to it."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2020 4:51:07 GMT
I think I'll check in on this one and it's just my two cents as your very inactive server founder. When I was active as the owner, there was always specific rules on racism and slurs not being tolerated (both server & forum) and it's really in line with the total freedom concept. Racism has always been about denying people their freedom & human rights; it's anti-freedom. Also, I had referenced the Proboards Community guidelines which specifically state, "Promotes or glorifies racial intolerance, uses hate and/or racist terms, or signifies hate towards any person or group of people" There's numerous other community guidelines which the TF forum is obliged to follow as long as they use Proboards - see www.proboards.com/community-guidelinesAlso, I wrote the following in 2015 and while some could rightly say I was suppressing speech, it was really about getting people to be civil & intelligently debate each other when they disagree as opposed to just throwing out slurs and hate. It is a hard balancing act though and understand when Seth says please forgive me. By the, I had included religion in this because there was a fair bit of division at that time. "Total Freedom is a server that welcomes anybody regardless of race, religion (inc. non-religious like Atheists), orientation, and political ideology; Total Freedom does not have a preference for any race, religion, orientation, or political ideology.
That doesn't mean we'll be holding hands and embracing each other; there is & will be friction between those of opposing beliefs but disagreement must be civil & respectful. Use of slurs and showing contempt will not convince anybody that you're right; quite the opposite in fact. If you can't express yourself intelligently and with respect, you're potentially violating our guidelines as well as admin rules of respect. Whether it's the server or the deep discussion forum, If we learn to intelligently and respectfully disagree with each other, perhaps you'll find common ground but if the discussion devolves into name calling, slurs, personal attacks, and hate, take a time out and if you're an admin, put a stop to it."Truly well-put. Simply put; Hate speech is oppressive, and opposes our principle of having 'total freedom'. We've spent nearly a decade perfecting an environment that is refined, enjoyed by those who seek enjoyment, and most importantly, free, for all, regardlass of race, color, class, ethnicity. If it had a jingle to it, this servers name ought to have been "Humane Freedom".
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StevenNL2000
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Post by StevenNL2000 on Apr 15, 2020 9:14:11 GMT
Yes, and in the past we allowed these words in the context of a joke, however that was a huge gray area and people used that excuse to harass people anyway. It may not go all the way to prevent harassment but its a start, and at least at this point they don't have the "It was just a joke" excuse anymore. No, people don't harass other people exclusively by means of distasteful language. If you're trying to say that censoring language which is commonly embedded in harassment is "the right way to go" then you should ban swearing. No, no it isn't. In my eyes it's a step backwards and a crappy patch sparked by a recent event. This particular post makes me confused about your stance. Banning swearing and especially slurs is one of the most frequently used rules in any community, both online and in real life. Are you saying that all of those people are wrong? Because at that point you are being quite contrarian. It can be but effectively it will not. People will openly express their opinions and contempt for others regardless of which words they're allowed to use. If anything, on a larger scale this will lead to the creation of esoteric nomenclature which will evade the eyes of administrators and people finding clever new ways to be a dick to people. ...using less emotionally charged words. That doesn't sound like a bad compromise to me. Also, if you invent an insult so obscure that nobody recognizes it as such, it is even an insult?
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grntbg
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Post by grntbg on Apr 15, 2020 14:03:37 GMT
No, people don't harass other people exclusively by means of distasteful language. If you're trying to say that censoring language which is commonly embedded in harassment is "the right way to go" then you should ban swearing. No, no it isn't. In my eyes it's a step backwards and a crappy patch sparked by a recent event. This particular post makes me confused about your stance. Banning swearing and especially slurs is one of the most frequently used rules in any community, both online and in real life. Are you saying that all of those people are wrong? Because at that point you are being quite contrarian. Most communities don't flaunt the concept of invoking "freedom" by letting players do what they'd like. While freedom does come with the restriction of supervised law, one of the tenants of freedom involves having the ability (or the "freedom") to express what you feel. Many replies and defenders of this policy throw around terms such as bigotry, however the vague wording of Seth's post combined with what terms such as "homophobia" and "transphobia" may be construed as, allows people to be punished for expressing their own views, perhaps even if somebody is not offended by them. What is "offensive" is not an objective material. It does not set a bar however relies on a communal understanding of what one should be offended by, but ignores the fact that this server is comprised of people with different views on politics, language, and sexuality. I don't buy into the "censorship is freedom" nonsense because it's a political slogan and has nothing to do with the role of freedom in discourse. Not to mention: once you're defending a policy because "everybody else is doing it" you're practicing ignorance of the fact that most Internet communities are run by children, news corporations (with ulterior motives) or companies which have an interest to regulate the topic of discussion with respect to profit.According to the policy, "really offensive things around those areas" are violative so I'd assume so, as long as the insult carries some significance of the criterion described by Seth. That sounds like the next web-based news publisher and not a platform on which people'd really like to play.
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StevenNL2000
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Post by StevenNL2000 on Apr 15, 2020 20:33:44 GMT
Many replies and defenders of this policy throw around terms such as bigotry, however the vague wording of Seth's post combined with what terms such as "homophobia" and "transphobia" may be construed as, allows people to be punished for expressing their own views, perhaps even if somebody is not offended by them. What is "offensive" is not an objective material. It does not set a bar however relies on a communal understanding of what one should be offended by, but ignores the fact that this server is comprised of people with different views on politics, language, and sexuality. What would be the difference without this policy? This is not an anarchy server, someone will have to make a judgement at some point. Not to mention: once you're defending a policy because "everybody else is doing it" you're practicing ignorance of the fact that most Internet communities are run by children, news corporations (with ulterior motives) or companies which have an interest to regulate the topic of discussion with respect to profit.Our ulterior motive is to get more players. If you think about it, that is not so different from the goals of the groups you mention.
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Feueristic
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Post by Feueristic on Apr 16, 2020 8:28:08 GMT
Maybe it's just me skimming through detailed and lengthy discussions, I think it's heading a way that is missing the point of the policy entirely. Of course, you may argue about whatever this does politically but to your average operator, this policy only states two things: 1. There will be no tolerance to racism, homophobia and transphobia hate instances on anywhere deemed official. If you haven't noticed, these bigotry cases were never tolerated to begin with. They have and will continue to be rules here. (in Form Posting Guidelines) Of note, posts that promotes intolerance with respect to race, sex, national origin, age, religion, or orientation are subject to moderation and possible sanction. (under Section 3 of Server Rules & Conduct Policy) Ethnic, racist, religious, sexual, sexual orientation type slurs, insults, and harassment [will normally result in an administrative control action]. I am not going to argue whether this is limiting freedom or adding on to freedom or is irrelevant to freedom as there has been plentiful conversation about it. The main thing is that 2. You can no longer joke about/with instances of such which includes calling someone an offensive term despite context saying it's completely a joke and the person directed is not at all offended. I think this IS by nature limiting freedom, but that alone does not mean it's inherently bad. As Seth has stated on the original post, the line gets blurry often. We don't wish to accidentally punish who shouldn't be punished and let go of those who were supposed to be banned. This is the scenario that the policy is trying to prevent and I think it's a step in the right direction. The freedom to joke around with different topics even if the topics are normally offensive ones is a power. I've heard some jokes and laughed at them and I feel like heading to the boiler room of hell when I die. But personally I would give up that right to prevent improper judgements of sanctions. That far outweighs a few laughs. If you compare it to an example of WorldEdit block limits, you can draw a few connections. For players who build massive structures? Yeah, that limits freedom. You can't edit a big structure at once and you have to go around it using different ways. But that does not mean it's a bad rule. Limiting the blocks that a player can WorldEdit at a time can prevent malicious players trying to crash the server using WorldEdit or cause massive griefs. I do love how the conversation here is civil albeit not very productive. Please do continue if you wish to but the policy is probably set in stone for now. I hope that this policy can help us move forward from the past drama and inappropriate behaviors from admins or players.
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