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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Apr 11, 2020 23:52:54 GMT
Edit: In response to polaris Because TF is currently drowning in flames right now and no amount of action will bring the community to collaborate on one consensus goal. Everyone here has different opinions, and most don't understand what the role's duties are bar from what it sought to replace. We were trying to put a heavy emphasis on essentially "corruption" control and further investigate Total Freedom's systematic hierarchy to find new ways for us to take decisive action and finally progress with TF's community and move forward. However I understand that's kinda highkey communist of us to just outright announce this division without community input, but at the time I felt like it was necessary considering the rampant power balance and CURSE our community has been suffering both as of recent and as of late. Have you ever noticed that most of the remaining active players have and always been the old admins of TF? They come and go after their year hiatuses and we all resume banter almost like nothing ever happened; retaining the same degree of stupidity and spewing out the same cringe/edgy epithets towards each other. This server now serves as nothing but a cesspool of nostalgia, and I dare say that's because this community will never accept monumental change due to both petty politics and issues with power. The curse of Total Freedom extends to all boundaries; including my own. Even after being away from this community that I loved so much I would still hear the toxic, yet GRAND history of the community through the years from friends I have stuck with ever since the conception of TF. But every time I would find myself involved, i'd find both unnecessary stress and anxiety; especially when holding a position that directly impacts TF's social structure. I'd assume nearly all of you who have stuck around have felt the same degree of anxiety that I have. Some of you have trained to steel yourselves and not let TF impact your real life. Some of you find TF as a semi-permanent social outlet, albeit toxic. And some of you are waiting for the next coup d'etat to stage your own conspiracy. We're all divided between caring too much and caring too little for our community. My point being made here is that yes, no division, rank, governor or dictator can control what this server's community does or think. They can only guide the people and hope they're doing their responsibilities to the best of their abilities, even under scrutiny of the public. But if we continue to stagnate and not evolve past gas lighting each other like incessant troglodytes for more drama while being shitty admins/players; Total Freedom will inevitably collapse. And you know what's the kicker? I KNOW more than half of you are aware of this, yet we still refuse to address the toxic sources in our community and think everything will be fine if we just ignore it and reconcile after someone makes an apology post that nobody will read. Some of you think it's more convenient to come up with a limpdick excuse for someone's transgressions instead of say what you really think because you're AFRAID of that unnecessary anxiety that will inevitably follow you and your forum post notifications for a fucking week. That brings me on to my next point. For the people who understand this anxious feeling, please understand that quite literally everyone here is human. This includes whoever's the acting owner(s) of Total Freedom. Instead of bashing on people for not doing the things that you want because you feel entitled, have an actual conversation with them. You'd be surprised how many people here are receptive to just hopping on discord and talking calmly about both the political and social state of Total Freedom. I completely understand where you're coming from with people gaslighting/grifting, only caring about change when it fits whatever circumstance they are currently in. However, I think you underestimate this community's capability to compromise, there have been plenty of situations in the past where people can agree on an idea, there just has to be a reasonable platform for discussion. Yes, there are grifters, but they have to suck it up and accept that change is necessary for this server and without it their own personal motivations are pointless because they will doom the server. Your point about corruption is no surprise to me, but the issue is that you're trying to solve a problem of corruption without involving the full community, something which in itself can lead to corruption if a small number of people are doing things without community oversight and input. If we're going to have real change to how things are around here, then we're going to need to start using the forums for how they should be used: as a platform for the entire community to be able to have a say in how the system should be changed. You can't have meaningful change under an oligarchy, no matter how well-intentioned change is, the community has to be able to have a say and there must be openness. Most of what you're saying here is not at all what was communicated in the announcement before about this, when there's a problem you first have to explain it to everybody, provide some solutions, and then allow everybody to be able to come up with a compromise. That just isn't what happened here, and that's why there was some backlash. I know more than most people here how hard it is to get change through, which is why it's necessary that there is well-intentioned leadership that are 1. aware of a problem and 2. are actually committed to fixing it, and most importantly aren't part of the problem themselves which is a problem we've been seeing for a while now. So, if we're going to push change through, then yes, we will need that platform and it's going to have to be properly utilized by the people that are already in power, including the owner, in order to communicate a plan of action and allow the community to have full engagement to provide their own ideas & solutions. That's admins, players, executives, everybody. We need to end the backroom planning & ideas and open things up to everybody, otherwise nothing meaningful will get done no matter how well-intentioned it is. I suggest that you try to do that much in order to get change through.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 0:07:30 GMT
Edit: In response to polaris Because TF is currently drowning in flames right now and no amount of action will bring the community to collaborate on one consensus goal. Everyone here has different opinions, and most don't understand what the role's duties are bar from what it sought to replace. We were trying to put a heavy emphasis on essentially "corruption" control and further investigate Total Freedom's systematic hierarchy to find new ways for us to take decisive action and finally progress with TF's community and move forward. However I understand that's kinda highkey communist of us to just outright announce this division without community input, but at the time I felt like it was necessary considering the rampant power balance and CURSE our community has been suffering both as of recent and as of late. Have you ever noticed that most of the remaining active players have and always been the old admins of TF? They come and go after their year hiatuses and we all resume banter almost like nothing ever happened; retaining the same degree of stupidity and spewing out the same cringe/edgy epithets towards each other. This server now serves as nothing but a cesspool of nostalgia, and I dare say that's because this community will never accept monumental change due to both petty politics and issues with power. The curse of Total Freedom extends to all boundaries; including my own. Even after being away from this community that I loved so much I would still hear the toxic, yet GRAND history of the community through the years from friends I have stuck with ever since the conception of TF. But every time I would find myself involved, i'd find both unnecessary stress and anxiety; especially when holding a position that directly impacts TF's social structure. I'd assume nearly all of you who have stuck around have felt the same degree of anxiety that I have. Some of you have trained to steel yourselves and not let TF impact your real life. Some of you find TF as a semi-permanent social outlet, albeit toxic. And some of you are waiting for the next coup d'etat to stage your own conspiracy. We're all divided between caring too much and caring too little for our community. My point being made here is that yes, no division, rank, governor or dictator can control what this server's community does or think. They can only guide the people and hope they're doing their responsibilities to the best of their abilities, even under scrutiny of the public. But if we continue to stagnate and not evolve past gas lighting each other like incessant troglodytes for more drama while being shitty admins/players; Total Freedom will inevitably collapse. And you know what's the kicker? I KNOW more than half of you are aware of this, yet we still refuse to address the toxic sources in our community and think everything will be fine if we just ignore it and reconcile after someone makes an apology post that nobody will read. Some of you think it's more convenient to come up with a limpdick excuse for someone's transgressions instead of say what you really think because you're AFRAID of that unnecessary anxiety that will inevitably follow you and your forum post notifications for a fucking week. That brings me on to my next point. For the people who understand this anxious feeling, please understand that quite literally everyone here is human. This includes whoever's the acting owner(s) of Total Freedom. Instead of bashing on people for not doing the things that you want because you feel entitled, have an actual conversation with them. You'd be surprised how many people here are receptive to just hopping on discord and talking calmly about both the political and social state of Total Freedom. I completely understand where you're coming from with people gaslighting/grifting, only caring about change when it fits whatever circumstance they are currently in. However, I think you underestimate this community's capability to compromise, there have been plenty of situations in the past where people can agree on an idea, there just has to be a reasonable platform for discussion. Yes, there are grifters, but they have to suck it up and accept that change is necessary for this server and without it their own personal motivations are pointless because they will doom the server. Your point about corruption is no surprise to me, but the issue is that you're trying to solve a problem of corruption without involving the full community, something which in itself can lead to corruption if a small number of people are doing things without community oversight and input. If we're going to have real change to how things are around here, then we're going to need to start using the forums for how they should be used: as a platform for the entire community to be able to have a say in how the system should be changed. You can't have meaningful change under an oligarchy, no matter how well-intentioned change is, the community has to be able to have a say and there must be openness. Most of what you're saying here is not at all what was communicated in the announcement before about this, when there's a problem you first have to explain it to everybody, provide some solutions, and then allow everybody to be able to come up with a compromise. That just isn't what happened here, and that's why there was some backlash. I know more than most people here how hard it is to get change through, which is why it's necessary that there is well-intentioned leadership that are 1. aware of a problem and 2. are actually committed to fixing it, and most importantly aren't part of the problem themselves which is a problem we've been seeing for a while now. So, if we're going to push change through, then yes, we will need that platform and it's going to have to be properly utilized by the people that are already in power, including the owner, in order to communicate a plan of action and allow the community to have full engagement to provide their own ideas & solutions. That's admins, players, executives, everybody. We need to end the backroom planning & ideas and open things up to everybody, otherwise nothing meaningful will get done no matter how well-intentioned it is. I suggest that you try to do that much in order to get change through. You make a great point, going forward all actions from IA should be handled with utter transparency. The current situation was not handled with as much transparency as it should have in a perfect situation, but IA has not even been established for two days before this has come to pass. To make it clear, this situation is dire, and needs to be resolved as soon as possible lest the server collapse. I want utter transparency in the future, but this emergency situation has rendered it very difficult since there's been no time to prepare. The process WILL be different in the future, should it go through.
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mattlawn
Veteran Member
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Post by mattlawn on Apr 12, 2020 0:18:12 GMT
I don't like the name gives of a shady vibe
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StevenNL2000
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Post by StevenNL2000 on Apr 12, 2020 6:59:22 GMT
Edit: In response to polaris Because TF is currently drowning in flames right now and no amount of action will bring the community to collaborate on one consensus goal. Everyone here has different opinions, and most don't understand what the role's duties are bar from what it sought to replace. We were trying to put a heavy emphasis on essentially "corruption" control and further investigate Total Freedom's systematic hierarchy to find new ways for us to take decisive action and finally progress with TF's community and move forward. However I understand that's kinda highkey communist of us to just outright announce this division without community input, but at the time I felt like it was necessary considering the rampant power balance and CURSE our community has been suffering both as of recent and as of late. Have you ever noticed that most of the remaining active players have and always been the old admins of TF? They come and go after their year hiatuses and we all resume banter almost like nothing ever happened; retaining the same degree of stupidity and spewing out the same cringe/edgy epithets towards each other. This server now serves as nothing but a cesspool of nostalgia, and I dare say that's because this community will never accept monumental change due to both petty politics and issues with power. The curse of Total Freedom extends to all boundaries; including my own. Even after being away from this community that I loved so much I would still hear the toxic, yet GRAND history of the community through the years from friends I have stuck with ever since the conception of TF. But every time I would find myself involved, i'd find both unnecessary stress and anxiety; especially when holding a position that directly impacts TF's social structure. I'd assume nearly all of you who have stuck around have felt the same degree of anxiety that I have. Some of you have trained to steel yourselves and not let TF impact your real life. Some of you find TF as a semi-permanent social outlet, albeit toxic. And some of you are waiting for the next coup d'etat to stage your own conspiracy. We're all divided between caring too much and caring too little for our community. My point being made here is that yes, no division, rank, governor or dictator can control what this server's community does or think. They can only guide the people and hope they're doing their responsibilities to the best of their abilities, even under scrutiny of the public. But if we continue to stagnate and not evolve past gas lighting each other like incessant troglodytes for more drama while being shitty admins/players; Total Freedom will inevitably collapse. And you know what's the kicker? I KNOW more than half of you are aware of this, yet we still refuse to address the toxic sources in our community and think everything will be fine if we just ignore it and reconcile after someone makes an apology post that nobody will read. Some of you think it's more convenient to come up with a limpdick excuse for someone's transgressions instead of say what you really think because you're AFRAID of that unnecessary anxiety that will inevitably follow you and your forum post notifications for a fucking week. That brings me on to my next point. For the people who understand this anxious feeling, please understand that quite literally everyone here is human. This includes whoever's the acting owner(s) of Total Freedom. Instead of bashing on people for not doing the things that you want because you feel entitled, have an actual conversation with them. You'd be surprised how many people here are receptive to just hopping on discord and talking calmly about both the political and social state of Total Freedom. You make a fair point, but can you explain what your vision is for the Internal Affairs rank in fixing this? After all, a strong community feeling among admins is not a direct result of corruption.
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miwo
Veteran Member
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Post by miwo on Apr 12, 2020 16:15:40 GMT
Back in the early 2010’s Mark introduced a new title, “Chief Admin”. The intention was that a single Admin was to be the sole arbiter of Admin-related matters (which would include personal disputes). After some time we revamped this form of control and introduced the Senior Admin title, which now meant that a select few Admins now held equal power, and therefore there was a smaller risk of bias associated with each decision. At the end of Mark’s tenure the executive system was introduced as an addition to this system, however, once the EAO title was introduced, we essentially had gone full-circle with a reintroduction of the Chief Admin rank. This leads to my broad question:
What is the point of Senior Admins now?
I realize that Senior Admins still have access to console (as far as I’m aware), but that was not the purpose for the title. Other than them having access to console, where is the distinction between Telnet- and Senior Admin status.
Per my view it looks as though the EAO’s new proposal is a revival of the old Senior Admin. So would it be fair for me to say that the Executive system was in some manner a failure, because we are now reverting back to a previous system?
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Wild1145
Club 4000 Member
Inactive Player & Inactive Senior Admin
Posts: 10,414
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Post by Wild1145 on Apr 12, 2020 18:16:32 GMT
I think we have enough people on a power trip here...
If the senior admins and executives can't keep the servers leadership team to account, then frankly the server has had it's time.
All this will end up as is another little power trip that will then in a years time have another team to review those peoples work and it'll just end up being an ego stroking for more people.
If the servers leadership aren't up to scratch then it's within the communities power to have then removed, that was part of the whole ownership policy that was masses of debate a while back...
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Apr 12, 2020 20:55:46 GMT
I think we have enough people on a power trip here... If the senior admins and executives can't keep the servers leadership team to account, then frankly the server has had it's time. All this will end up as is another little power trip that will then in a years time have another team to review those peoples work and it'll just end up being an ego stroking for more people. If the servers leadership aren't up to scratch then it's within the communities power to have then removed, that was part of the whole ownership policy that was masses of debate a while back... The ownership policy was removed, which means that server leadership is entirely a de facto existence rather than something that exists within policy. So no, it is not within the community's power to have anybody removed.
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Wild1145
Club 4000 Member
Inactive Player & Inactive Senior Admin
Posts: 10,414
| Likes: 9,680
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Post by Wild1145 on Apr 17, 2020 21:09:22 GMT
I think we have enough people on a power trip here... If the senior admins and executives can't keep the servers leadership team to account, then frankly the server has had it's time. All this will end up as is another little power trip that will then in a years time have another team to review those peoples work and it'll just end up being an ego stroking for more people. If the servers leadership aren't up to scratch then it's within the communities power to have then removed, that was part of the whole ownership policy that was masses of debate a while back... The ownership policy was removed, which means that server leadership is entirely a de facto existence rather than something that exists within policy. So no, it is not within the community's power to have anybody removed. Of course it was... Got to love wasting time coming up with something that was going to get thrown out... Either way ultimately it is within the communities power, if they don't like how things are running they vote with their legs and leave... Welcome to why I for one went inactive, and a lot of players did the same... Mark I believe still owns the domain and all that stuff so technically if pushed come to shove someone else could take over with his blessing but yeah. Regardless my original point still stands, I think this is a pretty awful idea myself.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Apr 17, 2020 21:24:17 GMT
The ownership policy was removed, which means that server leadership is entirely a de facto existence rather than something that exists within policy. So no, it is not within the community's power to have anybody removed. Of course it was... Got to love wasting time coming up with something that was going to get thrown out... Either way ultimately it is within the communities power, if they don't like how things are running they vote with their legs and leave... Welcome to why I for one went inactive, and a lot of players did the same... Mark I believe still owns the domain and all that stuff so technically if pushed come to shove someone else could take over with his blessing but yeah. Regardless my original point still stands, I think this is a pretty awful idea myself. Mark does not own the domain anymore, Seth does.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 23:54:52 GMT
Of course it was... Got to love wasting time coming up with something that was going to get thrown out... Either way ultimately it is within the communities power, if they don't like how things are running they vote with their legs and leave... Welcome to why I for one went inactive, and a lot of players did the same... Mark I believe still owns the domain and all that stuff so technically if pushed come to shove someone else could take over with his blessing but yeah. Regardless my original point still stands, I think this is a pretty awful idea myself. Mark does not own the domain anymore, Seth does. He still pays for it, I just have full access to it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2020 23:46:50 GMT
Internal affairs is now fully canon as the majority vote accepts it.
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