Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2020 3:00:12 GMT
What he said in the images was absolutely unacceptable, but you also have to consider the principle of charity, and it is the least charitable interpretation of what he said that it's anti-Semitic. The first image seemed to be just jokes, honestly not as bad as calling people an actual racial slur. The other images did not mention anything related to antisemitism at all, so it's an uncharitable connect the dots game based on unreasonable assumptions. I don't see how he should be blamed for antisemitism or racism more so than you should be blamed for racism by this logic, and I'm not blaming you at all, I'm simply being consistent and employing some nuance in my observations of this. I don't see how these bans/sanctions were valid in any way whatsoever. Some sort of punishment seems valid for the insults since that's not exactly something that we want, but that isn't what he was punished for from what I saw and a forum sanction based on it is invalid because it happened on the discord. Since he was suspended at the time of the images, you should've just treated it like any other person on the discord insulting somebody and restrict any action to that platform. Hold on I forgot some information: Zaid is an active member of the free palistine movement. Which I'm sure you know aims for the human rights of the palistinian people. Now remember the Israeli–Palestinian conflict? I'm almost 100% positive between that and many other things fueled video.doesnt-have-a.life/j5trC9f4byHK.png and video.doesnt-have-a.life/pYLLWMlUTJbL.png. Which reinforces the idea even more that he is targetting Nero because she is jewish. It was the "go back to reading your torah" comment that set me off. It was clear he was being anti-semitic And then he also was using his rank as an argument: video.doesnt-have-a.life/fEA6fBAMJ3Q2.png
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jan 18, 2020 3:07:49 GMT
What he said in the images was absolutely unacceptable, but you also have to consider the principle of charity, and it is the least charitable interpretation of what he said that it's anti-Semitic. The first image seemed to be just jokes, honestly not as bad as calling people an actual racial slur. The other images did not mention anything related to antisemitism at all, so it's an uncharitable connect the dots game based on unreasonable assumptions. I don't see how he should be blamed for antisemitism or racism more so than you should be blamed for racism by this logic, and I'm not blaming you at all, I'm simply being consistent and employing some nuance in my observations of this. I don't see how these bans/sanctions were valid in any way whatsoever. Some sort of punishment seems valid for the insults since that's not exactly something that we want, but that isn't what he was punished for from what I saw and a forum sanction based on it is invalid because it happened on the discord. Since he was suspended at the time of the images, you should've just treated it like any other person on the discord insulting somebody and restrict any action to that platform. Hold on I forgot some information: Zaid is an active member of the free-palistine movement. Which I'm sure you know aims for the human rights of the palistinian people. Now remember the Israeli–Palestinian conflict? I'm almost 100% positive between that and many other things fueled video.doesnt-have-a.life/j5trC9f4byHK.png and video.doesnt-have-a.life/pYLLWMlUTJbL.png. Which reinforces the idea even more that he is targetting Nero because she is jewish. It was the "go back to reading your torah" comment that set me off. It was clear he was being anti-semitic Yes, they are insensitive jokes, and yes I am calling them jokes because that is the most charitable interpretation which is pretty much all you've got when judging this sort of thing. However, these screenshots don't even seem to be from the TF discord (i.e. no role colors, that also applies to what I said earlier about the insult) meaning it's outside of our jurisdiction (yes, that isn't a total excuse, but it makes a difference in a situation like this considering some messages aren't a huge crisis), so even with our very relaxed rule on jokes which you set by the way it has little validity in a TF sanction. I don't see how you can not only believe 100% that Zaid was not joking and instead being totally anti-Semitic, that what he said applied even outside of TF jurisdiction, and that it somehow is concerned with the forum. This just does not add up to a valid sanction. Also, human rights for a group of people != bigotry against another group of people. They are insensitive comments, that's all I've got, I don't see how it can add up to a sanction, otherwise you'd have to sanction yourself because as far as I'm concerned that are way more people that would find calling somebody a racial slur more offensive than an unfunny jew joke.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2020 3:27:07 GMT
Hold on I forgot some information: Zaid is an active member of the free-palistine movement. Which I'm sure you know aims for the human rights of the palistinian people. Now remember the Israeli–Palestinian conflict? I'm almost 100% positive between that and many other things fueled video.doesnt-have-a.life/j5trC9f4byHK.png and video.doesnt-have-a.life/pYLLWMlUTJbL.png. Which reinforces the idea even more that he is targetting Nero because she is jewish. It was the "go back to reading your torah" comment that set me off. It was clear he was being anti-semitic Yes, they are insensitive jokes, and yes I am calling them jokes because that is the most charitable interpretation which is pretty much all you've got when judging this sort of thing. However, these screenshots don't even seem to be from the TF discord (i.e. no role colors, that also applies to what I said earlier about the insult) meaning it's outside of our jurisdiction (yes, that isn't a total excuse, but it makes a difference in a situation like this considering some messages aren't a huge crisis), so even with our very relaxed rule on jokes which you set by the way it has little validity in a TF sanction. I don't see how you can not only believe 100% that Zaid was not joking and instead being totally anti-Semitic, that what he said applied even outside of TF jurisdiction, and that it somehow is concerned with the forum. This just does not add up to a valid sanction. Also, human rights for a group of people != bigotry against another group of people. They are insensitive comments, that's all I've got, I don't see how it can add up to a sanction, otherwise you'd have to sanction yourself because as far as I'm concerned that are way more people that would find calling somebody a racial slur more offensive than an unfunny jew joke. Well, in my eyes, I don't see it as just a joke. Yes it wasn't on the discord server, but I don't want him on any of our platforms for two weeks until he cools off. The messages were sent in a group chat of friends that I was in. It was interpreted as a personal attack by Nero, and upon review it looks like to me and other admins that it was such, therefore he was sanctioned. And I personally banned him from the discord server. Nero had nothing to do with removing his roles, but because I believe Nero was jewish, Zaid automatically assumed it was her. I do not want anyone in power especially the EAO being discriminatory. More evidence: i.imgur.com/EE1l5UU.png and video.doesnt-have-a.life/gOpSy0WZkxZE.pngI rest my case. But if you still want to object to it you can.
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tozzit
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Post by tozzit on Jan 18, 2020 3:35:15 GMT
but because I believe Nero was jewish, Zaid automatically assumed it was her. I do not want anyone in power especially the EAO being discriminatory. I am 100% sure that is not why he thought that
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Video
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Post by Video on Jan 18, 2020 3:38:20 GMT
Hold on I forgot some information: Zaid is an active member of the free-palistine movement. Which I'm sure you know aims for the human rights of the palistinian people. Now remember the Israeli–Palestinian conflict? I'm almost 100% positive between that and many other things fueled video.doesnt-have-a.life/j5trC9f4byHK.png and video.doesnt-have-a.life/pYLLWMlUTJbL.png. Which reinforces the idea even more that he is targetting Nero because she is jewish. It was the "go back to reading your torah" comment that set me off. It was clear he was being anti-semitic Yes, they are insensitive jokes, and yes I am calling them jokes because that is the most charitable interpretation which is pretty much all you've got when judging this sort of thing. However, these screenshots don't even seem to be from the TF discord (i.e. no role colors, that also applies to what I said earlier about the insult) meaning it's outside of our jurisdiction (yes, that isn't a total excuse, but it makes a difference in a situation like this considering some messages aren't a huge crisis), so even with our very relaxed rule on jokes which you set by the way it has little validity in a TF sanction. I don't see how you can not only believe 100% that Zaid was not joking and instead being totally anti-Semitic, that what he said applied even outside of TF jurisdiction, and that it somehow is concerned with the forum. This just does not add up to a valid sanction. Also, human rights for a group of people != bigotry against another group of people. They are insensitive comments, that's all I've got, I don't see how it can add up to a sanction, otherwise you'd have to sanction yourself because as far as I'm concerned that are way more people that would find calling somebody a racial slur more offensive than an unfunny jew joke. Zaid still violated the conduct policy, which literally says this:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2020 3:40:20 GMT
but because I believe Nero was jewish, Zaid automatically assumed it was her. I do not want anyone in power especially the EAO being discriminatory. I am 100% sure that is not why he thought that Well, based on his comments, I see it as so.
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Premintex
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Post by Premintex on Jan 18, 2020 7:30:15 GMT
but because I believe Nero was jewish, Zaid automatically assumed it was her. I do not want anyone in power especially the EAO being discriminatory. I am 100% sure that is not why he thought that I've been around him long enough to confidently say that he puts his own political and religious beliefs over anyone
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StevenNL2000
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Post by StevenNL2000 on Jan 18, 2020 11:29:40 GMT
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jan 18, 2020 22:48:57 GMT
I am 100% sure that is not why he thought that I've been around him long enough to confidently say that he puts his own political and religious beliefs over anyone Is it not unreasonable to rush somebody who has been admin for several years and just one of the most powerful people on the server to temporary permban over something that you cannot argue as fact though? We don't enforce rules under opinion & conjecture, Seth made this very clear when he updated the conduct policy to make sure that jokes are allowed. When you're tiptoeing around these exceptions to say "ah, most likely he just hates the jews" that is not at all valid in a situation in which we are supposed to be objective arbiters of the rules, especially on a server like this where freedom is prioritized. Do I think something should have been in order for the disrespectful behavior? Perhaps, but instead he was rushed to a forum sanction and then temporary permban from all TF platforms for things that did not happen on the forum and in some of these pieces of evidence not even on a TF-related platform. Was evidence provided on the forum? Yes, but the forum evidence was just "snarky; bad attitude" in which case we might as well permban all of ourselves if that's how we're enforcing policy now. I just don't see this at all as objective interpretations of the rules, rather I think people already had in mind "this guy's an asshole, we gotta be rid of him" and put in minimal effort to make the case for sanctions and sped them through with little regard for how we actually process these things on this server, and it sets really awful precedent for how we treat the rules of this server to be honest with you.
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jan 18, 2020 22:51:07 GMT
Yes, they are insensitive jokes, and yes I am calling them jokes because that is the most charitable interpretation which is pretty much all you've got when judging this sort of thing. However, these screenshots don't even seem to be from the TF discord (i.e. no role colors, that also applies to what I said earlier about the insult) meaning it's outside of our jurisdiction (yes, that isn't a total excuse, but it makes a difference in a situation like this considering some messages aren't a huge crisis), so even with our very relaxed rule on jokes which you set by the way it has little validity in a TF sanction. I don't see how you can not only believe 100% that Zaid was not joking and instead being totally anti-Semitic, that what he said applied even outside of TF jurisdiction, and that it somehow is concerned with the forum. This just does not add up to a valid sanction. Also, human rights for a group of people != bigotry against another group of people. They are insensitive comments, that's all I've got, I don't see how it can add up to a sanction, otherwise you'd have to sanction yourself because as far as I'm concerned that are way more people that would find calling somebody a racial slur more offensive than an unfunny jew joke. Zaid still violated the conduct policy, which literally says this: 1. This was not the basis of any sanction request or permban request, therefore you cannot retroactively apply this to them. This is not how we execute the rules of this server. 2. The most significant screenshots posted here did not occur on a TF-related platform. 3. I have seen almost no evidence that would warrant ban from a TF-related platform that took place on a TF-related platform other than "snarky attitude".
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Post by Polaris Seltzeris on Jan 18, 2020 22:53:21 GMT
Yes, they are insensitive jokes, and yes I am calling them jokes because that is the most charitable interpretation which is pretty much all you've got when judging this sort of thing. However, these screenshots don't even seem to be from the TF discord (i.e. no role colors, that also applies to what I said earlier about the insult) meaning it's outside of our jurisdiction (yes, that isn't a total excuse, but it makes a difference in a situation like this considering some messages aren't a huge crisis), so even with our very relaxed rule on jokes which you set by the way it has little validity in a TF sanction. I don't see how you can not only believe 100% that Zaid was not joking and instead being totally anti-Semitic, that what he said applied even outside of TF jurisdiction, and that it somehow is concerned with the forum. This just does not add up to a valid sanction. Also, human rights for a group of people != bigotry against another group of people. They are insensitive comments, that's all I've got, I don't see how it can add up to a sanction, otherwise you'd have to sanction yourself because as far as I'm concerned that are way more people that would find calling somebody a racial slur more offensive than an unfunny jew joke. Well, in my eyes, I don't see it as just a joke. Yes it wasn't on the discord server, but I don't want him on any of our platforms for two weeks until he cools off. The messages were sent in a group chat of friends that I was in. It was interpreted as a personal attack by Nero, and upon review it looks like to me and other admins that it was such, therefore he was sanctioned. And I personally banned him from the discord server. Nero had nothing to do with removing his roles, but because I believe Nero was jewish, Zaid automatically assumed it was her. I do not want anyone in power especially the EAO being discriminatory. More evidence: i.imgur.com/EE1l5UU.png and video.doesnt-have-a.life/gOpSy0WZkxZE.pngI rest my case. But if you still want to object to it you can. Then this is equivalent to what Mark would do years ago with people "on vacation". If this is how we're going to do things, why put up the facade of executing things through policy? Because it clearly was not and that's what you just admitted. As the owner you do have the ability to do whatever you want, but policies also exist for a reason and if you aren't going to execute these situations based off of your own policies then why do they even exist?
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