Premintex
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Post by Premintex on Jan 6, 2020 12:03:59 GMT
Could we make a summary of the conduct policy instead? I'd suggest not. It tends to lead to more confusion around things, and when the policies don't overlap properly leads to all sorts of chaos. I personally would support simplifying the conduct policy... The current one is so long I wouldn't read it at this point anyway, and I'd imagine most players don't actually read it and most admins probably just enforce their own version of it based on what they've been taught because it's so much to read and understand... It doesn't need to be more than 10 or 15 bullet points with short sentences and maybe some examples. It's not THAT long to a point where admins don't even understand it. It's not hard at all, you just dedicate a bit of your time to grasp it. We've all been taught in school how to read&understand long texts and things like that |
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jan 6, 2020 19:21:26 GMT
I'd suggest not. It tends to lead to more confusion around things, and when the policies don't overlap properly leads to all sorts of chaos. I personally would support simplifying the conduct policy... The current one is so long I wouldn't read it at this point anyway, and I'd imagine most players don't actually read it and most admins probably just enforce their own version of it based on what they've been taught because it's so much to read and understand... It doesn't need to be more than 10 or 15 bullet points with short sentences and maybe some examples. It's not THAT long to a point where admins don't even understand it. It's not hard at all, you just dedicate a bit of your time to grasp it. We've all been taught in school how to read&understand long texts and things like that Last time I looked at it, it was so stupidly long that honestly, nobody is going to read it, and nobody is going to realistically memorise it. Not just to play on a game server. I think you've over-estimating peoples will power, dedication and ability to care. I wouldn't read it if I were a new player, and I wouldn't read it now, it's too long and not worth my time. Realistically if it's more than 10 or so short points, people won't remember the message you're trying to give them... Things need to be short, snappy and easy to understand. Also, I didn't say admins don't understand it, I'm saying they probably haven't read it, much less remember the exact wording of it without having to go and check, therefore most admins probably enforce an unofficial variant of it that they've picked up from their time being an admin. Given most of the rules should be no more than common sense, it seems exceptional overkill to have something that long just for a game server. |
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Premintex
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Post by Premintex on Jan 6, 2020 20:04:44 GMT
It's not THAT long to a point where admins don't even understand it. It's not hard at all, you just dedicate a bit of your time to grasp it. We've all been taught in school how to read&understand long texts and things like that Last time I looked at it, it was so stupidly long that honestly, nobody is going to read it, and nobody is going to realistically memorise it. Not just to play on a game server. I think you've over-estimating peoples will power, dedication and ability to care. I wouldn't read it if I were a new player, and I wouldn't read it now, it's too long and not worth my time. Realistically if it's more than 10 or so short points, people won't remember the message you're trying to give them... Things need to be short, snappy and easy to understand. Also, I didn't say admins don't understand it, I'm saying they probably haven't read it, much less remember the exact wording of it without having to go and check, therefore most admins probably enforce an unofficial variant of it that they've picked up from their time being an admin. Given most of the rules should be no more than common sense, it seems exceptional overkill to have something that long just for a game server. There already is a short version, like way shorter, you'd probably know that if you joined the server. And I think you're making a lot of assumptions to say that we are not capable of reading that whole thing. The new player doesn't actually have to read it, they just use common sense to know what's wrong and what's right, but if they're interested or were just told to, they can read the short version. I also don't see how you don't have time, the full conduct policy (starting from section 1) is 121 lines of 3400 words. It takes time to read, but won't at all take a slight chunk of my day off that I could've used to do anything else. The rules have to be long, because as Steven said, the more shortcuts you take, the more the admins have to generalize and will do things as THEY see fit, resulting in disagreements and all that. No one remembers the exact wording of anything, the unofficial variant that admins enforce is really not far off at all from the real policy and if it is, there are other admins to help out. The admin isn't 1 individual learning on their own. I don't like the excuse "it's just a server on a block game" - I could make a line lamely describing literally anything. Apple? Just people getting rich off of selling metal and glass. Travelling in an airplane? Just sitting doing nothing for hours. This server has genuinely changed my life and I don't know how I'd be without it - and I'm sure many many others can relate. It doesn't matter if it's "just a block game server". |
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jan 6, 2020 20:24:13 GMT
Last time I looked at it, it was so stupidly long that honestly, nobody is going to read it, and nobody is going to realistically memorise it. Not just to play on a game server. I think you've over-estimating peoples will power, dedication and ability to care. I wouldn't read it if I were a new player, and I wouldn't read it now, it's too long and not worth my time. Realistically if it's more than 10 or so short points, people won't remember the message you're trying to give them... Things need to be short, snappy and easy to understand. Also, I didn't say admins don't understand it, I'm saying they probably haven't read it, much less remember the exact wording of it without having to go and check, therefore most admins probably enforce an unofficial variant of it that they've picked up from their time being an admin. Given most of the rules should be no more than common sense, it seems exceptional overkill to have something that long just for a game server. There already is a short version, like way shorter, you'd probably know that if you joined the server. And I think you're making a lot of assumptions to say that we are not capable of reading that whole thing. The new player doesn't actually have to read it, they just use common sense to know what's wrong and what's right, but if they're interested or were just told to, they can read the short version. I also don't see how you don't have time, the full conduct policy (starting from section 1) is 121 lines of 3400 words. It takes time to read, but won't at all take a slight chunk of my day off that I could've used to do anything else. The rules have to be long, because as Steven said, the more shortcuts you take, the more the admins have to generalize and will do things as THEY see fit, resulting in disagreements and all that. No one remembers the exact wording of anything, the unofficial variant that admins enforce is really not far off at all from the real policy and if it is, there are other admins to help out. The admin isn't 1 individual learning on their own. I don't like the excuse "it's just a server on a block game" - I could make a line lamely describing literally anything. Apple? Just people getting rich off of selling metal and glass. Travelling in an airplane? Just sitting doing nothing for hours. This server has genuinely changed my life and I don't know how I'd be without it - and I'm sure many many others can relate. It doesn't matter if it's "just a block game server". You seem to be continuing to miss or ignore the point I'm making here... It's not about the fact there is a skimmed down version, it is not about the fact it's only 121 lines and 3400 words (Which for the record, is still far far far too long for any conduct policy) and it's not the fact it's about the time it takes to read it. The issue I have, is it is entirely impractical in it's current form. The fact there have to be shorter versions of it, prove the need to re-write it in a far more shorter and easy to follow way. You cannot reasonably expect every player to read and fully understand 100% of the policy as it currently stands, and it would be unfair to then sanction anyone based off of that logic. The rules do not have to be long, there is always an understanding on servers that there will be personal judgment calls, if there weren't then we'd have replaced the need for any admins with the plugin by now... Having short easy to understand and follow rules is the key to ensuring universal understanding and appreciation for the rules. You've said yourself, it's 121 lines. That's 100 more lines than I think is necessary to get the point across to the players. Things like this rely on everyone having a deep understanding of the rules, and in it's current form I don't believe that can ever be the case... They're too long and difficult to memorise, and that's what you need with rules like this... "No one remembers the exact wording of anything, the unofficial variant that admins enforce is really not far off at all from the real policy and if it is, there are other admins to help out." just proves my entire point. We need rules that the admins can actually remember, and remember the exact wording of. Most conduct policies have that, and if you forget the keynotes of it, it's not hard to brush up on it, whereas right now it's a massive job and I think it needs someone to take the time to look at re-wording and significantly shortening it. As for it "just a block game", ultimately that is all it is. We're not writing war and peace, or an act of legally binding legislation. Nobody goes to jail if you incorrectly ban someone. We want an enjoyable experience for everyone, and having rules so lengthy it's going to take 20-30mins to read and actually understand them, is not something I think is enjoyable. |
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Premintex
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Post by Premintex on Jan 6, 2020 21:09:54 GMT
It's not about the fact there is a skimmed down version, it is not about the fact it's only 121 lines and 3400 words (Which for the record, is still far far far too long for any conduct policy) and it's not the fact it's about the time it takes to read it. The issue I have, is it is entirely impractical in it's current form. The fact there have to be shorter versions of it, prove the need to re-write it in a far more shorter and easy to follow way. You cannot reasonably expect every player to read and fully understand 100% of the policy as it currently stands, and it would be unfair to then sanction anyone based off of that logic. Do we need every player to understand the rules to the absolute 100%? You genuinely can read first few words of every rule of the policy and you will have understood at least 90% of it, and that's just from reading it alone. Being on the server at all can make you understand pretty much all the rules. Don't believe me? Up until I first got admin, I've never read the policy, didn't even know what it was. For the entire first week of me being admin I have not made a single mistake in rule enforcing (First week is lots of hours, as at the time I was thrilled about the server for getting admin). It shows the lower standard for admins at the time but it also shows that a 10 year old with bad English could still understand the rules without even reading them. You do not need to understand 100% of the rules, at all. Also there's a shorter version of it because it's on the server, you're not on the 1 page doing that thing and only that thing. The rules do not have to be long, there is always an understanding on servers that there will be personal judgment calls, if there weren't then we'd have replaced the need for any admins with the plugin by now... Having short easy to understand and follow rules is the key to ensuring universal understanding and appreciation for the rules. You've said yourself, it's 121 lines. That's 100 more lines than I think is necessary to get the point across to the players. Things like this rely on everyone having a deep understanding of the rules, and in it's current form I don't believe that can ever be the case... They're too long and difficult to memorise, and that's what you need with rules like this... If the rules are short, then there's way more room for personal judgement to take place. The more that is specified, the more you'll see it from your perspective. It was never ever necessary to memorize all the rules, example would be a case when someone genuinely did memorize all the rules, their places in the conduct policy, and what they mean and how to use them, and that actually impacted their reputation (an op at the time). As you say, people should only get the general understanding of the rules (even though earlier you said "every player to read and fully understand 100% of the policy" which is unreasonable in any conduct policy) and 1 quick read of the policy (not even all of it) or simply being on the server can give anyone the general understanding of the rules. No one needs to memorize the rules, just understand them. "No one remembers the exact wording of anything, the unofficial variant that admins enforce is really not far off at all from the real policy and if it is, there are other admins to help out." just proves my entire point. We need rules that the admins can actually remember, and remember the exact wording of. Most conduct policies have that, and if you forget the keynotes of it, it's not hard to brush up on it, whereas right now it's a massive job and I think it needs someone to take the time to look at re-wording and significantly shortening it. - If we wanted admins like that we'd be paying them. Like you say, people want to enjoy their time here, admins are volunteers and do not at all need to memorize the exact wording of the policy. It's simply unnecessary. - Most of what makes the conduct policy long is specifications of things. These are necessary to be in the rules but not necessary to be memorized as they just brush off the occasional confusion. I can compare our rules to the rules of hypixel, if you go to their page, you see 1 line and underneath are OPTIONAL TO READ specifications. While that may not be obvious here as we don't have a fancy rules page, but it's still the same. You can read the 1st line of every rule and you understand more than 90% of the rules already. As for it "just a block game", ultimately that is all it is. We're not writing war and peace, or an act of legally binding legislation. Nobody goes to jail if you incorrectly ban someone. We want an enjoyable experience for everyone, and having rules so lengthy it's going to take 20-30mins to read and actually understand them, is not something I think is enjoyable. Does every single part of every action on the server have to be enjoyable? In fact, I believe it does actually make the experience on the server more enjoyable. For the admin, it's just enforcing the rules, but on the other side is (sometimes, other cases are people who just join to grief without care of rules, or people knowing they'll be banned) someone not being able to play their favorite/one of their favorite servers for the next day or two. While they may not know it, ensuring they won't get banned is enjoyable in the long term. |
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jan 6, 2020 21:23:24 GMT
Do we need every player to understand the rules to the absolute 100%? You genuinely can read first few words of every rule of the policy and you will have understood at least 90% of it, and that's just from reading it alone. Being on the server at all can make you understand pretty much all the rules. Don't believe me? Up until I first got admin, I've never read the policy, didn't even know what it was. For the entire first week of me being admin I have not made a single mistake in rule enforcing (First week is lots of hours, as at the time I was thrilled about the server for getting admin). It shows the lower standard for admins at the time but it also shows that a 10 year old with bad English could still understand the rules without even reading them. You do not need to understand 100% of the rules, at all. Also there's a shorter version of it because it's on the server, you're not on the 1 page doing that thing and only that thing. I think that proves my point. If you can get the point of the rules from the first few words, that's all we really need... I've seen it in so many other places including here, where people instantly get put off by the wall of text. It's a discouragement. If the rules are short, then there's way more room for personal judgement to take place. The more that is specified, the more you'll see it from your perspective. It was never ever necessary to memorize all the rules, example would be a case when someone genuinely did memorize all the rules, their places in the conduct policy, and what they mean and how to use them, and that actually impacted their reputation (an op at the time). As you say, people should only get the general understanding of the rules (even though earlier you said "every player to read and fully understand 100% of the policy" which is unreasonable in any conduct policy) and 1 quick read of the policy (not even all of it) or simply being on the server can give anyone the general understanding of the rules. No one needs to memorize the rules, just understand them. I think developing your personal judgement is a key part of being an administrator... Not every situation is ever going to be clear cut, and having the flexibility to use your own judgement and common sense, as long as you feel justified in doing so, should not be an issue. If someone thinks they were wrongly banned or someone was wrongly not-banned, they can always appeal the decision. It's not a permanent thing and if other admins are on they can help train and correct people, and have that discussion. Again, you're removing the human element away here with no actual gain. Plus in order to actually understand the rules is an even bigger job than to just memorise them. They're not simple, and if they were that quick to memorise either people aren't properly reading all of it, or it could just be shortened to the key points people understand. - If we wanted admins like that we'd be paying them. Like you say, people want to enjoy their time here, admins are volunteers and do not at all need to memorize the exact wording of the policy. It's simply unnecessary. If you don't know what the policies actually state, what are you enforcing? Nothing more than your interpretation of the policy, at which point is it not better to have a more easy to understand policy where everyone can get the idea of what we're trying to achieve, instead of over 100 lines of speel which people don't want to read..? - Most of what makes the conduct policy long is specifications of things. These are necessary to be in the rules but not necessary to be memorized as they just brush off the occasional confusion. I can compare our rules to the rules of hypixel, if you go to their page, you see 1 line and underneath are OPTIONAL TO READ specifications. While that may not be obvious here as we don't have a fancy rules page, but it's still the same. You can read the 1st line of every rule and you understand more than 90% of the rules already. Then maybe we need to re-right the guidelines in this sort of format? So people can actually read the important things, the actual rules with the clarity questions / additional shit the admins might need to reference in the future / players might be genuinely interested in from time to time, to be able to read that at their leisure without it being a massive off-putting wall of text? Does every single part of every action on the server have to be enjoyable? In fact, I believe it does actually make the experience on the server more enjoyable. For the admin, it's just enforcing the rules, but on the other side is (sometimes, other cases are people who just join to grief without care of rules, or people knowing they'll be banned) someone not being able to play their favorite/one of their favorite servers for the next day or two. While they may not know it, ensuring they won't get banned is enjoyable in the long term. I think you're giving far too little credit for once to the admins. We shouldn't be accepting admins that can't follow the rules, and who don't show sensible judgement... Ultimately that's what I'm getting at here, yes how I admin and how you admin will differ, but we're ultimately enforcing from the same rule book. We should be able to use our own judgement and digression to decide how to handle that within reason, and not need to consult a 100 page guide on exactly what action to take in X specific circumstance... It's impractical and I really think it's just suggesting the admins are only capable of "monkey say monkey do" which certainly never used to be the case here... |
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StevenNL2000
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Post by StevenNL2000 on Jan 6, 2020 21:58:07 GMT
- Most of what makes the conduct policy long is specifications of things. These are necessary to be in the rules but not necessary to be memorized as they just brush off the occasional confusion. I can compare our rules to the rules of hypixel, if you go to their page, you see 1 line and underneath are OPTIONAL TO READ specifications. While that may not be obvious here as we don't have a fancy rules page, but it's still the same. You can read the 1st line of every rule and you understand more than 90% of the rules already. Then maybe we need to re-right the guidelines in this sort of format? So people can actually read the important things, the actual rules with the clarity questions / additional shit the admins might need to reference in the future / players might be genuinely interested in from time to time, to be able to read that at their leisure without it being a massive off-putting wall of text? This I can get into: reformatting (not rewriting) the conduct policy to be similar to what Hypixel has, which is a single line for the rule itself with big explanations in spoilers: hypixel.net/rules/ |
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Panther
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Post by Panther on Jan 7, 2020 2:06:40 GMT
Here's the big issue I have with how we treat the conduct policy: If one tiny action isn't exactly in accordance with the conduct policy, everyone throws a fucking temper tantrum. What we honestly need to do is stop making such a big deal out of every tiny little issue in the rules. Everything is situational, we shouldn't treat the conduct policy as a magical excuse band-aid for situations like "Oh I banned you because you were griefing," when in reality it was their own build or they did it accidentally and were about to undo it or something like that. What's actually happening, and yeah, admins aren't going to like this, but they aren't taking time to actually gauge the situation and figure out an appropriate response. I've read countless ban appeals from people in these situations and they're blamed every time for the "mistake" of accidentally griefing etc., but the admins should honestly be in fault for being unable to figure out what was actually going on instead of just punishing the player on the spot and just excusing themselves by saying "i was only enforcing the conduct policy!!!"
The conduct policy is not exact. It doesn't cover every single problem. It won't be correct every time. It never will. That's why I say we should just simplify it rather than leave it as the complicated mess it is. We've taken too long to realize that while complicating it does cover more issues and makes it more clear, it's never going to be clear enough. What really needs to happen is that admins should gauge the situation themselves and issue a response accordingly. "i was enforcing the conduct policy" should never be an excuse because honestly the conduct policy will never come close enough to reality to support an action that happens in reality.
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Premintex
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Post by Premintex on Jan 7, 2020 9:57:48 GMT
Then maybe we need to re-right the guidelines in this sort of format? So people can actually read the important things, the actual rules with the clarity questions / additional shit the admins might need to reference in the future / players might be genuinely interested in from time to time, to be able to read that at their leisure without it being a massive off-putting wall of text? Let's do that then - I'll probably respond to the rest of your message later |
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jan 7, 2020 17:01:33 GMT
Then maybe we need to re-right the guidelines in this sort of format? So people can actually read the important things, the actual rules with the clarity questions / additional shit the admins might need to reference in the future / players might be genuinely interested in from time to time, to be able to read that at their leisure without it being a massive off-putting wall of text? This I can get into: reformatting (not rewriting) the conduct policy to be similar to what Hypixel has, which is a single line for the rule itself with big explanations in spoilers: hypixel.net/rules/Yeah, I think something in that sort of style is probably a good middle ground. That exact layout probably isn't going to work perfectly for us but something like that I'd agree with myself. |
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jan 7, 2020 17:03:55 GMT
Then maybe we need to re-right the guidelines in this sort of format? So people can actually read the important things, the actual rules with the clarity questions / additional shit the admins might need to reference in the future / players might be genuinely interested in from time to time, to be able to read that at their leisure without it being a massive off-putting wall of text? Let's do that then - I'll probably respond to the rest of your message later As long as what's there is of actual value and not full of fluff, and is formatted in such a way anyone can spend 2 mins and understand what we're trying to achieve, I'd be down for that. Like the Hypixel ones, I've never read them before I saw the link (Because why google it...) but I know that it boils down to being respectful of other players in how you speak and interact with them, don't cheat / get one over on other players in an unfair / non-sportsmanship way, and you should not grief / attack other players works regardless of what it is. I could now play the server knowing fully well what the basic rules are and if I wasn't sure on something, I could ask a member of staff, or look further into their rules and guidelines. |
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Post by throwawayformysafety on Jan 8, 2020 9:18:41 GMT
Id like to add something
i. Self-harm or suicide threats and suggestions. In most cases, such threats aren't serious (e.g. give me admin or I'll kill myself, KYS) and it should be considered a Section 3 offense (smite, mute, etc.). If you believe the threat is serious, urge them to contact a hotline or go to a hospital, day ban, and report on the forum in the admin section. If the person making the threat has a forum account, please note it when you report the situation. If you know the person IRL and can contact authorities, feel free to do so. When such a situation occurs, the most senior admin on the server should handle it but do handle such incidents as fast as possible and don't engage in any discussion with the person making the threat except to tell them to get urgent assistance in real life. Trolling suicide threats or serious suggesting others commit suicide will not be tolerated; a perm ban sanction can be imposed and admins who do it will be removed from from status as well. If one is seriously depressed and is having self-harm thoughts, the server is the wrong place to be - go to a hospital or urgent care and stay off the server until your health crisis is addressed.
Im using a throwaway to write this but all of my experiences with hotlines have been pretty shit, hotlines aren't always a good way to help when someone is in a crisis situation
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 14:50:54 GMT
Id like to add something i. Self-harm or suicide threats and suggestions. In most cases, such threats aren't serious (e.g. give me admin or I'll kill myself, KYS) and it should be considered a Section 3 offense (smite, mute, etc.). If you believe the threat is serious, urge them to contact a hotline or go to a hospital, day ban, and report on the forum in the admin section. If the person making the threat has a forum account, please note it when you report the situation. If you know the person IRL and can contact authorities, feel free to do so. When such a situation occurs, the most senior admin on the server should handle it but do handle such incidents as fast as possible and don't engage in any discussion with the person making the threat except to tell them to get urgent assistance in real life. Trolling suicide threats or serious suggesting others commit suicide will not be tolerated; a perm ban sanction can be imposed and admins who do it will be removed from from status as well. If one is seriously depressed and is having self-harm thoughts, the server is the wrong place to be - go to a hospital or urgent care and stay off the server until your health crisis is addressed. Im using a throwaway to write this but all of my experiences with hotlines have been pretty shit, hotlines aren't always a good way to help when someone is in a crisis situation No, it's definitely not always the best option for everyone. However, the vast majority of us are not trained professionals and this is really the best we can do - the server should not be the saving grace to someone in this situation, and the admins online during a suicide threat cannot be held responsible or accountable for something like this (it's not fair to them because then that leaves them with a feeling of worry and/or failure to assist). Total Freedom has had various suicide threats in the past where people have taken the initiative to investigate more in-depth and assist the person (which is great if you want to do it), but that is situational and should be left completely to the person to decide. Now, to be fair, maybe more resources can be listed for admins to attach in the ban message other than the hotline & hospital suggestion (what those resources are, I'm not sure). Trust me, if I could help every single person in this situation I would, but sometimes it's best to leave it to the professionals. |
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1cloud_
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Post by 1cloud_ on Jan 9, 2020 0:45:09 GMT
Id like to add something i. Self-harm or suicide threats and suggestions. In most cases, such threats aren't serious (e.g. give me admin or I'll kill myself, KYS) and it should be considered a Section 3 offense (smite, mute, etc.). If you believe the threat is serious, urge them to contact a hotline or go to a hospital, day ban, and report on the forum in the admin section. If the person making the threat has a forum account, please note it when you report the situation. If you know the person IRL and can contact authorities, feel free to do so. When such a situation occurs, the most senior admin on the server should handle it but do handle such incidents as fast as possible and don't engage in any discussion with the person making the threat except to tell them to get urgent assistance in real life. Trolling suicide threats or serious suggesting others commit suicide will not be tolerated; a perm ban sanction can be imposed and admins who do it will be removed from from status as well. If one is seriously depressed and is having self-harm thoughts, the server is the wrong place to be - go to a hospital or urgent care and stay off the server until your health crisis is addressed. Im using a throwaway to write this but all of my experiences with hotlines have been pretty shit, hotlines aren't always a good way to help when someone is in a crisis situation No, it's definitely not always the best option for everyone. However, the vast majority of us are not trained professionals and this is really the best we can do - the server should not be the saving grace to someone in this situation, and the admins online during a suicide threat cannot be held responsible or accountable for something like this (it's not fair to them because then that leaves them with a feeling of worry and/or failure to assist). Total Freedom has had various suicide threats in the past where people have taken the initiative to investigate more in-depth and assist the person (which is great if you want to do it), but that is situational and should be left completely to the person to decide. Now, to be fair, maybe more resources can be listed for admins to attach in the ban message other than the hotline & hospital suggestion (what those resources are, I'm not sure). Trust me, if I could help every single person in this situation I would, but sometimes it's best to leave it to the professionals. I agree with szech, hotlines aren't always great but we aren't professionals and should at least list some numbers or sites, here's a few lists en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicide_crisis_linessuicide.org/international-suicide-hotlines.htmlsuicide.org/suicide-hotlines.htmlBy the way, suicide.org isn't pro suicide, it's pro prevention. Those urls are lists of hotlines over the world. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 4:09:44 GMT
Planned as stated in numerous places.
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