Fleek
Veteran Member
Posts: 3,548
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Post by Fleek on Dec 16, 2018 23:02:55 GMT
This server has become so boring these last months, and I frankly don't relish it here. The reasoning of my suspension was outr?, considering that what I did wouldn't have transmuted anything. It's doleful to visually perceive so many people already starting to leave-- or are orchestrating to depart. This server isn't what it used to be - a cordial environment for people who would relish to have a diminutive hobby by being an admin. Veraciously, I don't feel fascinated with coming back-- and if it wasn't for the suspension, I would have resigned anyway. Goodbye and goodluck on endeavoring to bring this server back to how it was, albeit I doubt anything has transmuted since it just seems to go downhill.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2018 23:04:51 GMT
This server has become so boring these last months, and I frankly don't like it here. The reasoning of my suspension was bizarre, considering that what I did wouldn't have changed anything. It's sad to see so many people already starting to leave-- or are planning to leave. This server isn't what it used to be - a friendly environment for people who would like to have a small hobby by being an admin. Honestly, I don't feel interested in coming back-- and if it wasn't for the suspension, I would have resigned anyway. Goodbye and goodluck on trying to bring this server back to how it was, even though I doubt anything has changed since it just seems to go downhill. This server has become so boring these last months, and I frankly don't like it here. The reasoning of my suspension was bizarre, considering that what I did wouldn't have changed anything. It's sad to see so many people already starting to leave-- or are planning to leave. This server isn't what it used to be - a friendly environment for people who would like to have a small hobby by being an admin. Honestly, I don't feel interested in coming back-- and if it wasn't for the suspension, I would have resigned anyway. Goodbye and goodluck on trying to bring this server back to how it was, even though I doubt anything has changed since it just seems to go downhill
Forum ban me
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Fleek
Veteran Member
Posts: 3,548
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Post by Fleek on Dec 16, 2018 23:05:10 GMT
This server has become so boring these last months, and I frankly don't relish it here. The reasoning of my suspension was outr?, considering that what I did wouldn't have transmuted anything. It's doleful to visually perceive so many people already starting to leave-- or are orchestrating to depart. This server isn't what it used to be - a cordial environment for people who would relish to have a diminutive hobby by being an admin. Veraciously, I don't feel fascinated with coming back-- and if it wasn't for the suspension, I would have resigned anyway. Goodbye and goodluck on endeavoring to bring this server back to how it was, albeit I doubt anything has transmuted since it just seems to go downhill. thonk Now, that was from csgenerator.
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serrif
Veteran Member
Posts: 440
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Post by serrif on Dec 16, 2018 23:06:18 GMT
You're asking to be Forums Veto? Well I can make this transpire:
StevenNL2000 or Windows proscribe this utilizer please and thanks
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Vicki
Veteran Member
Forums tag: vicki411
Posts: 2,431
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Post by Vicki on Dec 16, 2018 23:08:07 GMT
This Thread is turning into cancer. help
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2018 23:09:34 GMT
TLDR: More admins = Less players. More admins = more drama. More admins = more rogues. More rogues = less players. The server is structured to be a community for admins, when it should be geared towards the actual players.
KANYECRAFT DOESN'T EXIST IT'S A REPRESENTATION OF THE AVERAGE SERVER
I'LL PROBABLY ADD TO THIS OVER TIME
Disclaimer: I wrote this in an hour at school so there's probably errors, and I didn't include as much as I would have liked to. So first of all, there's definitely issues effecting this server. You're right that it's not too late, and that there isn't any easy solution. To be clear, I do think there is a solution to the problem, however it would be very hard to properly implement, simply because of how much we rely on it. But if people really want this server to survive, I think it should be considered. Now to start off, lets think of a normal minecraft server, we'll call it KanyeCraft. I'll use Kanyecraft as a reference between the average minecraft server and TotalFreedom. On this KanyeCraft, players probably have the incentive to keep coming back for a few obvious reasons: maybe because there's a real sense of community, they find it a lot of fun, or their friends play on it. Pretty similar to TotalFreedom. However, TF has one big difference: the incentive of becoming an admin. On KanyeCraft, less than 1% of the playerbase are admins, and the 99% are normal players who have no chance of becoming admin; this is fine for the players, because the server already fills up all their needs, and there is no incentive of becoming an admin. This is where my issue is. On TotalFreedom, there is a HUGE incentive to become admin. Now let's look at the possible reasons a normal player wants admin, and relate it to KanyeCraft player incentives I listed earlier: - There is almost no OP community on TF. No, seriously, it's almost non existent. In huge contrast to the admin community, which is actually rather large, and is growing. So as the OP community shrinks, the admin community grows. I will touch on this later.
- Being an admin is simply far more fun than being an OP. Just objectively, being an OP is just a bare bones experience when compared to the admin experience. And the players definitely know this.
- If their friend referred them to the server, their friend is probably an admin. And guess what? If their friend happens to be telnet or above, they can instantly make them an admin. So why stay an OP when every single sign points towards becoming an admin, which is objectively more fun?
So there's the problem. There's no point in staying a normal player when becoming an admin is more fun and easy. Whereas on KanyeCraft, becoming an admin is extremely hard, and probably less fun than being a normal player. So what causes becoming an admin on TF so easy while on KanyeCraft it's so hard? Four things: Admin applications, *PAS, ranking up, and admin culture. These four things are huge parts of TotalFreedom. I'll now compare and contrast all of these issues individually with TotalFreedom and the average server. Admin Applications: - TotalFreedom: Admin applications are opened almost the entire year. There is no real limit as to how many can be open, and there's never really a reason as to why they should be open. Now let's be clear, admin applications almost always fail, mostly because the applicant doesn't know what they're doing. But even if applications only succeed 5% of the time, considering how many applications there are, a considerable amount succeed. Especially when you consider that people can just try, over and over again until they eventually succeed. So now that dude is an admin, but did we really gain anything from that?
- KanyeCraft: Admin applications are either: nonexistent, almost never opened, only when they really need a new admin, or always open, but extremely strict. So let's suppose that the latter is true, and that applications are just really strict. Like, so strict that even if someone deserves admin, they won't get it because the server doesn't actually need any new admins. No one will become admin simply because they applied so many times that they finally succeeded.
*PAS:
- TotalFreedom: *PAS (tpas, spas, opas, etc) was originally a good idea when a very small amount of people could do it. It used to be limited to just seniors, and there was way less seniors back then. When you have so many people that can do this, you'll find that you get more and more admins exponentially. It's just an outdated concept, and promotes nepotism.
- KanyeCraft: It either doesn't exist, or there's a similar concept where higher executives or the owner can choose an admin. But it's probably not really a thing.
Ranking up:
- TotalFreedom: Ranking up is a huge part of the admin process on TotalFreedom. It does give an incentive to admins to work harder, but it also promotes power hungry admins, and it ultimately gives a reason to be an admin that has nothing to do with even the server itself. The ranking process creates a cultural divide even between the admins of the same server. This is almost entirely unheard of in other servers, but it's a huge problem here simply because of how many admins there are. And since there are multiple layers to being an admin, we're more likely to promote someone to super admin, because the rank means less.
- KanyeCraft: Ranking up exists, but it's probably only done when someone really deserves it, not because they've waited their turn. This still creates power hungry admins, but since there are far less admins than on TotalFreedom, it's not really an issue. It's not really a formal process like TotalFreedom has.
Admin culture:
- TotalFreedom: Oh boy, this is a big problem. We've tried reinforcing the idea that more admins equals less downtime for many years, and I think at this point it's just objectively false. The idea of having an admin on 24/7 is just a fundamentally impossible goal, and has been the excuse for having far more admins than we really need, to the point where we almost have more admins than players. The idea that we should shoot for quantity over quality is really a root cause of many issues we're currently facing.
- KanyeCraft: There probably isn't any admin culture. Admin culture only exists on TF because it's evolved to this point after so many years.
Another issue that I think is hurting the server a lot is how poorly we treat our players. The divide between the admins of the server and the players of this server is just intense. I've seen on very many occasions where OPs are just openly treated like garbage, simply because they're a lower rank. I have experienced this personally, when I wasn't an admin for a bit. Admins that did not know I was a past senior almost always treated me like shit, like I was subhuman. Dare question authority? Too bad. Admin disrespected you? Oh get over it. But no disrespecting admins! This also contributes to more people wanting to become admin, just so they actually feel respected. And if they don't decide to become an admin, they might just leave the server because it's just so hostile. So what does that mean? More admins, less players. So with all of this being said, how does more admins mean less players? Here's my little feedback loop to explain it. When a new player joins the server, here are the possibilities of things they will do next:
- Player joins the server and never becomes an admin, but stays: This is the ideal situation, and the situation that should be promoted more. However, it is being increasingly less common, which is TERRIBLE for the server.
- Player joins the server and becomes an admin: This is the less ideal situation, and I think it's being promoted far more than it should be. When a player becomes an admin, you have one less player.
- Player becomes admin and goes rogue: This is a cause and affect of the player having become admin. If he simply stayed a player all along, this scenario would have never occurred. And he probably caused some players to leave while he was at it.
- Player joins the server and leaves: If a player can't become admin, they might just leave. This is the worst possible scenario.
How do I propose we fix this?
So if you've read this far, perhaps you agree with me, perhaps you don't. Regardless, here are my pretty controversial suggestions, that you may or may not agree with:
1. Indefinitely close admin applications. Do this until we actually really need a new admin.
2. Stop giving rogue admins their power back so easily. If someone really proves they deserve it after a long time, maybe. But if we just keep giving people more and more chances, it just does so much harm to the server, and results in more drama.
3. Work to develop the community for the players. Advertise the server, give new opportunities for players, find a way to give a lasting sense of community, etc. Stop focusing on the admin community so much.
4. Admin purge. Purge a large amount of admins that simply aren't living up to the job. If that definition happens to include me, so be it.
5. Remove all applications for being promoted. Admins should be handpicked on who is best for the job, and then can be voted on. No more pity promotions.
6. Stop treating players like dogshit. You see it every day, even on the forum. Stop acting like admins are more entitled to respect, everyone deserves the same respect.
7. Just start gradually moving towards acting like a normal server. If we really want this server to survive, we need to do what works. 8. Freeze *PAS indefinitely. I don't have a complete solution on this, because it seems like it's not a completely dead concept, but it's also just so fundamentally broken in correspondence to my suggestions. Perhaps in the future allow only the executives to do it with limits, but many just remove it entirely. 9. Work towards quality over quantity. 10. Improve communication and transparency from executives and the owner. 11. Increase OP voting rights. Allow them to vote on permban appeals. Allow them to vote on new admins.
Now these changes would only work if we actually committed to them. No half measures. I think these changes are worth trying, but that really falls to the owner to decide. Now obviously more would be needed to, but this is just a start.
[/quote]
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? Shyrix ?
Veteran Member
00111010 01011110 00101001 00001010
Posts: 1,567
| Likes: 645
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Post by ? Shyrix ? on Dec 16, 2018 23:10:49 GMT
Now, that was from csgenerator. this server has naturalize so acupunctuation these determinative months, and i straightforwardly don't indistinguishable it here. the intellectualization of my discontinuation was bizarre, seeing that what i did wouldn't have metamorphosed anything. it's twopenny-halfpenny to archbishopric so differentiated consanguinean theretofore starting to leave-- or are preconcertedness to leave. this server isn't what it irretrievable to be - a well-intentioned circumambience for consanguinean who would indistinguishable to have a inconsequential hobby by being an admin. honestly, i don't discriminatingness ultranationalist in appropinquation back-- and if it wasn't for the suspension, i would have accommodating anyway. goodbye and goodluck on investigational to regurgitate this server counterclockwise to how it was, parallelogrammatic notwithstanding i controvertibility anything has metamorphosed retrospectively it just seems to go downhill.
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?Robin
Club 4000 Member
caleb get off of tf
Posts: 8,027
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Post by ?Robin on Dec 16, 2018 23:10:51 GMT
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serrif
Veteran Member
Posts: 440
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Post by serrif on Dec 16, 2018 23:12:28 GMT
TLDR: More admins = Less players. More admins = more drama. More admins = more rogues. More rogues = less players. The server is structured to be a community for admins, when it should be geared towards the actual players.
KANYECRAFT DOESN'T EXIST IT'S A REPRESENTATION OF THE AVERAGE SERVER
I'LL PROBABLY ADD TO THIS OVER TIME
Disclaimer: I wrote this in an hour at school so there's probably errors, and I didn't include as much as I would have liked to. So first of all, there's definitely issues effecting this server. You're right that it's not too late, and that there isn't any easy solution. To be clear, I do think there is a solution to the problem, however it would be very hard to properly implement, simply because of how much we rely on it. But if people really want this server to survive, I think it should be considered. Now to start off, lets think of a normal minecraft server, we'll call it KanyeCraft. I'll use Kanyecraft as a reference between the average minecraft server and TotalFreedom. On this KanyeCraft, players probably have the incentive to keep coming back for a few obvious reasons: maybe because there's a real sense of community, they find it a lot of fun, or their friends play on it. Pretty similar to TotalFreedom. However, TF has one big difference: the incentive of becoming an admin. On KanyeCraft, less than 1% of the playerbase are admins, and the 99% are normal players who have no chance of becoming admin; this is fine for the players, because the server already fills up all their needs, and there is no incentive of becoming an admin. This is where my issue is. On TotalFreedom, there is a HUGE incentive to become admin. Now let's look at the possible reasons a normal player wants admin, and relate it to KanyeCraft player incentives I listed earlier: - There is almost no OP community on TF. No, seriously, it's almost non existent. In huge contrast to the admin community, which is actually rather large, and is growing. So as the OP community shrinks, the admin community grows. I will touch on this later.
- Being an admin is simply far more fun than being an OP. Just objectively, being an OP is just a bare bones experience when compared to the admin experience. And the players definitely know this.
- If their friend referred them to the server, their friend is probably an admin. And guess what? If their friend happens to be telnet or above, they can instantly make them an admin. So why stay an OP when every single sign points towards becoming an admin, which is objectively more fun?
So there's the problem. There's no point in staying a normal player when becoming an admin is more fun and easy. Whereas on KanyeCraft, becoming an admin is extremely hard, and probably less fun than being a normal player. So what causes becoming an admin on TF so easy while on KanyeCraft it's so hard? Four things: Admin applications, *PAS, ranking up, and admin culture. These four things are huge parts of TotalFreedom. I'll now compare and contrast all of these issues individually with TotalFreedom and the average server. Admin Applications: - TotalFreedom: Admin applications are opened almost the entire year. There is no real limit as to how many can be open, and there's never really a reason as to why they should be open. Now let's be clear, admin applications almost always fail, mostly because the applicant doesn't know what they're doing. But even if applications only succeed 5% of the time, considering how many applications there are, a considerable amount succeed. Especially when you consider that people can just try, over and over again until they eventually succeed. So now that dude is an admin, but did we really gain anything from that?
- KanyeCraft: Admin applications are either: nonexistent, almost never opened, only when they really need a new admin, or always open, but extremely strict. So let's suppose that the latter is true, and that applications are just really strict. Like, so strict that even if someone deserves admin, they won't get it because the server doesn't actually need any new admins. No one will become admin simply because they applied so many times that they finally succeeded.
*PAS:
- TotalFreedom: *PAS (tpas, spas, opas, etc) was originally a good idea when a very small amount of people could do it. It used to be limited to just seniors, and there was way less seniors back then. When you have so many people that can do this, you'll find that you get more and more admins exponentially. It's just an outdated concept, and promotes nepotism.
- KanyeCraft: It either doesn't exist, or there's a similar concept where higher executives or the owner can choose an admin. But it's probably not really a thing.
Ranking up:
- TotalFreedom: Ranking up is a huge part of the admin process on TotalFreedom. It does give an incentive to admins to work harder, but it also promotes power hungry admins, and it ultimately gives a reason to be an admin that has nothing to do with even the server itself. The ranking process creates a cultural divide even between the admins of the same server. This is almost entirely unheard of in other servers, but it's a huge problem here simply because of how many admins there are. And since there are multiple layers to being an admin, we're more likely to promote someone to super admin, because the rank means less.
- KanyeCraft: Ranking up exists, but it's probably only done when someone really deserves it, not because they've waited their turn. This still creates power hungry admins, but since there are far less admins than on TotalFreedom, it's not really an issue. It's not really a formal process like TotalFreedom has.
Admin culture:
- TotalFreedom: Oh boy, this is a big problem. We've tried reinforcing the idea that more admins equals less downtime for many years, and I think at this point it's just objectively false. The idea of having an admin on 24/7 is just a fundamentally impossible goal, and has been the excuse for having far more admins than we really need, to the point where we almost have more admins than players. The idea that we should shoot for quantity over quality is really a root cause of many issues we're currently facing.
- KanyeCraft: There probably isn't any admin culture. Admin culture only exists on TF because it's evolved to this point after so many years.
Another issue that I think is hurting the server a lot is how poorly we treat our players. The divide between the admins of the server and the players of this server is just intense. I've seen on very many occasions where OPs are just openly treated like garbage, simply because they're a lower rank. I have experienced this personally, when I wasn't an admin for a bit. Admins that did not know I was a past senior almost always treated me like shit, like I was subhuman. Dare question authority? Too bad. Admin disrespected you? Oh get over it. But no disrespecting admins! This also contributes to more people wanting to become admin, just so they actually feel respected. And if they don't decide to become an admin, they might just leave the server because it's just so hostile. So what does that mean? More admins, less players. So with all of this being said, how does more admins mean less players? Here's my little feedback loop to explain it. When a new player joins the server, here are the possibilities of things they will do next:
- Player joins the server and never becomes an admin, but stays: This is the ideal situation, and the situation that should be promoted more. However, it is being increasingly less common, which is TERRIBLE for the server.
- Player joins the server and becomes an admin: This is the less ideal situation, and I think it's being promoted far more than it should be. When a player becomes an admin, you have one less player.
- Player becomes admin and goes rogue: This is a cause and affect of the player having become admin. If he simply stayed a player all along, this scenario would have never occurred. And he probably caused some players to leave while he was at it.
- Player joins the server and leaves: If a player can't become admin, they might just leave. This is the worst possible scenario.
How do I propose we fix this?
So if you've read this far, perhaps you agree with me, perhaps you don't. Regardless, here are my pretty controversial suggestions, that you may or may not agree with:
1. Indefinitely close admin applications. Do this until we actually really need a new admin.
2. Stop giving rogue admins their power back so easily. If someone really proves they deserve it after a long time, maybe. But if we just keep giving people more and more chances, it just does so much harm to the server, and results in more drama.
3. Work to develop the community for the players. Advertise the server, give new opportunities for players, find a way to give a lasting sense of community, etc. Stop focusing on the admin community so much.
4. Admin purge. Purge a large amount of admins that simply aren't living up to the job. If that definition happens to include me, so be it.
5. Remove all applications for being promoted. Admins should be handpicked on who is best for the job, and then can be voted on. No more pity promotions.
6. Stop treating players like dogshit. You see it every day, even on the forum. Stop acting like admins are more entitled to respect, everyone deserves the same respect.
7. Just start gradually moving towards acting like a normal server. If we really want this server to survive, we need to do what works. 8. Freeze *PAS indefinitely. I don't have a complete solution on this, because it seems like it's not a completely dead concept, but it's also just so fundamentally broken in correspondence to my suggestions. Perhaps in the future allow only the executives to do it with limits, but many just remove it entirely. 9. Work towards quality over quantity. 10. Improve communication and transparency from executives and the owner. 11. Increase OP voting rights. Allow them to vote on permban appeals. Allow them to vote on new admins.
Now these changes would only work if we actually committed to them. No half measures. I think these changes are worth trying, but that really falls to the owner to decide. Now obviously more would be needed to, but this is just a start.
TLDR: More admins = Less players. More admins = more drama. More admins = more rogues. More rogues = less players. The server is structured to be a community for admins, when it should be geared towards the authentic players. KANYECRAFT DOESN'T SUBSIST IT'S A REPRESENTATION OF THE AVERAGE SERVER I'LL PROBABLY INTEGRATE TO THIS OVER TIME Disclaimer: I indited this in an hour at school so there's probably errors, and I didn't include as much as I would have relished to. So first of all, there's definitely issues effecting this server. You're right that it's not too tardy, and that there isn't any facile solution. To be pellucid, I do cerebrate there is a solution to the quandary, however it would be very hard to congruously implement, simply because of how much we rely on it. But if people authentically want this server to survive, I cerebrate it should be considered. Now to commence off, lets cerebrate of a mundane minecraft server, we'll call it KanyeCraft. I'll utilize Kanyecraft as a reference between the average minecraft server and TotalFreedom. On this KanyeCraft, players probably have the incentive to keep coming back for a few conspicuous reasons: maybe because there's an authentic sense of community, they find it a plethora of frolic, or their friends play on it. Pretty kindred to TotalFreedom. However, TF has one astronomically immense difference: the incentive of becoming an admin. On KanyeCraft, less than 1% of the playerbase are admins, and the 99% are mundane players who have no chance of becoming admin; this is fine for the players, because the server already fills up all their desiderata, and there is no incentive of becoming an admin. This is where my issue is. On TotalFreedom, there is a ASTRONOMICALLY IMMENSE incentive to become admin. Now let's optically canvass the possible reasons a mundane player wants admin, and relate it to KanyeCraft player incentives I listed earlier: There is virtually no OP community on TF. No, solemnly, it's virtually non existent. In sizably voluminous contrast to the admin community, which is authentically rather immensely colossal, and is growing. So as the OP community shrinks, the admin community grows. I will physically contact on this later. Being an admin is simply far more fun than being an OP. Just objectively, being an OP is just a bare bones experience when compared to the admin experience. And the players definitely ken this. If their friend referred them to the server, their friend is probably an admin. And conjecture what? If their friend transpires to be telnet or above, they can instantly make them an admin. So why stay an OP when every single sign points towards becoming an admin, which is objectively more fun? So there's the quandary. There's no point in staying a mundane player when becoming an admin is more fun and facile. Whereas on KanyeCraft, becoming an admin is prodigiously hard, and probably less fun than being a mundane player. So what causes becoming an admin on TF so facile while on KanyeCraft it's so hard? Four things: Admin applications, *PAS, ranking up, and admin culture. These four things are immensely colossal components of TotalFreedom. I'll now compare and contrast all of these issues individually with TotalFreedom and the average server. Admin Applications: TotalFreedom: Admin applications are opened virtually the entire year. There is no authentic limit as to how many can be open, and there's never genuinely a reason as to why they should be open. Now let's be pellucid, admin applications virtually always fail, mostly because the applicant doesn't ken what they're doing. But even if applications only prosper 5% of the time, considering how many applications there are, a considerable amount prosper. Especially when you consider that people can just endeavor, perpetually again until they eventually prosper. So now that dude is an admin, but did we authentically gain anything from that? KanyeCraft: Admin applications are either: nonexistent, virtually never opened, only when they authentically need an incipient admin, or always open, but astronomically rigorous. So let's suppose that the latter is true, and that applications are just authentically stringent. Like, so stringent that even if someone deserves admin, they won't get it because the server doesn't genuinely need any incipient admins. No one will become admin simply because they applied so many times that they determinately prospered. *PAS: TotalFreedom: *PAS (tpas, spas, opas, etc) was pristinely a good conception when a minutely diminutive amount of people could do it. It used to be constrained to just seniors, and there was way less seniors back then. When you have so many people that can do this, you'll find that you get more and more admins exponentially. It's just a pass? concept, and promotes nepotism. KanyeCraft: It either doesn't subsist, or there's a homogeneous concept where higher executives or the owner can cull an admin. But it's probably not authentically a thing. Ranking up: TotalFreedom: Ranking up is a sizably voluminous part of the admin process on TotalFreedom. It does give an incentive to admins to work harder, but it withal promotes power hungry admins, and it ultimately gives a reason to be an admin that has nothing to do with even the server itself. The ranking process engenders a cultural divide even between the admins of the same server. This is virtually entirely unheard of in other servers, but it's an immensely colossal quandary here simply because of how many admins there are. And since there are multiple layers to being an admin, we're more liable to promote someone to super admin, because the rank designates less. KanyeCraft: Ranking up subsists, but it's probably only done when someone genuinely deserves it, not because they've waited their turn. This still engenders power hungry admins, but since there are far less admins than on TotalFreedom, it's not authentically an issue. It's not genuinely a formal process like TotalFreedom has. Admin culture: TotalFreedom: Oh boy, this is a sizably voluminous quandary. We've endeavored reinforcing the conception that more admins equals less downtime for many years, and I cerebrate at this point it's just objectively mendacious. The conception of having an admin on 24/7 is just a fundamentally infeasible goal, and has been the exculpation for having far more admins than we genuinely need, to the point where we virtually have more admins than players. The conception that we should shoot for quantity over quality is authentically a root cause of many issues we're currently facing. KanyeCraft: There probably isn't any admin culture. Admin culture only subsists on TF because it's evolved to this point after so many years. Another issue that I cerebrate is hurting the server a lot is how poorly we treat our players. The divide between the admins of the server and the players of this server is just excruciating. I've optically discerned on very many occasions where OPs are just openly treated like garbage, simply because they're a lower rank. I have experienced this personally, when I wasn't an admin for remotely. Admins that did not ken I was a past senior virtually always treated me like shit, like I was subhuman. Dare question ascendancy? Too deplorable. Admin vilipended you? Oh get over it. But no deriding admins! This withal contributes to more people wanting to become admin, just so they authentically feel reverenced. And if they don't decide to become an admin, they might just leave the server because it's just so belligerent. So what does that denote? More admins, less players. So with all of this being verbally expressed, how does more admins mean less players? Here's my little feedback loop to explicate it. When an incipient player joins the server, here are the possibilities of things they will do next: Player joins the server and never becomes an admin, but stays: This is the ideal situation, and the situation that should be promoted more. However, it is being increasingly less prevalent, which is TERRIBLE for the server. Player joins the server and becomes an admin: This is the less ideal situation, and I cerebrate it's being promoted far more than it should be. When a player becomes an admin, you have one less player. Player becomes admin and goes rogue: This is a cause and affect of the player having become admin. If he simply stayed a player all along, this scenario would have never occurred. And he probably caused some players to leave while he was at it. Player joins the server and leaves: If a player can't become admin, they might just leave. This is the worst possible scenario. How do I propose we fine-tune this? So if you've read this far, perhaps you concur with me, perhaps you don't. Regardless, here are my pretty controversial suggestions, that you may or may not accede with: 1. Indefinitely close admin applications. Do this until we genuinely genuinely need an incipient admin. 2. Stop giving rogue admins their puissance back so facilely. If someone authentically proves they deserve it after a long time, maybe. But if we just keep giving people more and more chances, it just does so much harm to the server, and results in more drama. 3. Work to develop the community for the players. Advertise the server, give incipient opportunities for players, find a way to give a lasting sense of community, etc. Stop fixating on the admin community so much. 4. Admin purge. Purge a substantial amount of admins that simply aren't living up to the job. If that definition transpires to include me, so be it. 5. Abstract all applications for being promoted. Admins should be handpicked on who is best for the job, and then can be voted on. No more pity promotions. 6. Stop treating players like dogshit. You visually perceive it every day, even on the forum. Stop acting like admins are more entitled to veneration, everyone deserves the same veneration. 7. Just start gradually moving towards acting like a mundane server. If we genuinely want this server to survive, we require to do what works. 8. Freeze *PAS indefinitely. I don't have a consummate solution on this, because it seems homogeneous to it's not a plenarily dead concept, but it's withal just so fundamentally broken in correspondence to my suggestions. Perhaps in the future sanction only the executives to do it with limits, but many just abstract it entirely. 9. Work towards quality over quantity. 10. Amend communication and transparency from executives and the owner. 11. Increment OP voting rights. Sanction them to vote on permban appeals. Sanction them to vote on incipient admins. Now these transmutations would only work if we authentically committed to them. No moiety measures. I cerebrate these vicissitudes are worth endeavoring, but that genuinely falls to the owner to decide. Now conspicuously more would be needed to, but this is just a commencement.
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Panther
Veteran Member
Posts: 721
| Likes: 604
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Post by Panther on Dec 16, 2018 23:12:32 GMT
I literally thought your IGN was Wapster until now
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?Robin
Club 4000 Member
caleb get off of tf
Posts: 8,027
| Likes: 8,604
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Post by ?Robin on Dec 16, 2018 23:13:08 GMT
TLDR: More admins = Less players. More admins = more drama. More admins = more rogues. More rogues = less players. The server is structured to be a community for admins, when it should be geared towards the actual players.
KANYECRAFT DOESN'T EXIST IT'S A REPRESENTATION OF THE AVERAGE SERVER
I'LL PROBABLY ADD TO THIS OVER TIME
Disclaimer: I wrote this in an hour at school so there's probably errors, and I didn't include as much as I would have liked to. So first of all, there's definitely issues effecting this server. You're right that it's not too late, and that there isn't any easy solution. To be clear, I do think there is a solution to the problem, however it would be very hard to properly implement, simply because of how much we rely on it. But if people really want this server to survive, I think it should be considered. Now to start off, lets think of a normal minecraft server, we'll call it KanyeCraft. I'll use Kanyecraft as a reference between the average minecraft server and TotalFreedom. On this KanyeCraft, players probably have the incentive to keep coming back for a few obvious reasons: maybe because there's a real sense of community, they find it a lot of fun, or their friends play on it. Pretty similar to TotalFreedom. However, TF has one big difference: the incentive of becoming an admin. On KanyeCraft, less than 1% of the playerbase are admins, and the 99% are normal players who have no chance of becoming admin; this is fine for the players, because the server already fills up all their needs, and there is no incentive of becoming an admin. This is where my issue is. On TotalFreedom, there is a HUGE incentive to become admin. Now let's look at the possible reasons a normal player wants admin, and relate it to KanyeCraft player incentives I listed earlier: - There is almost no OP community on TF. No, seriously, it's almost non existent. In huge contrast to the admin community, which is actually rather large, and is growing. So as the OP community shrinks, the admin community grows. I will touch on this later.
- Being an admin is simply far more fun than being an OP. Just objectively, being an OP is just a bare bones experience when compared to the admin experience. And the players definitely know this.
- If their friend referred them to the server, their friend is probably an admin. And guess what? If their friend happens to be telnet or above, they can instantly make them an admin. So why stay an OP when every single sign points towards becoming an admin, which is objectively more fun?
So there's the problem. There's no point in staying a normal player when becoming an admin is more fun and easy. Whereas on KanyeCraft, becoming an admin is extremely hard, and probably less fun than being a normal player. So what causes becoming an admin on TF so easy while on KanyeCraft it's so hard? Four things: Admin applications, *PAS, ranking up, and admin culture. These four things are huge parts of TotalFreedom. I'll now compare and contrast all of these issues individually with TotalFreedom and the average server. Admin Applications: - TotalFreedom: Admin applications are opened almost the entire year. There is no real limit as to how many can be open, and there's never really a reason as to why they should be open. Now let's be clear, admin applications almost always fail, mostly because the applicant doesn't know what they're doing. But even if applications only succeed 5% of the time, considering how many applications there are, a considerable amount succeed. Especially when you consider that people can just try, over and over again until they eventually succeed. So now that dude is an admin, but did we really gain anything from that?
- KanyeCraft: Admin applications are either: nonexistent, almost never opened, only when they really need a new admin, or always open, but extremely strict. So let's suppose that the latter is true, and that applications are just really strict. Like, so strict that even if someone deserves admin, they won't get it because the server doesn't actually need any new admins. No one will become admin simply because they applied so many times that they finally succeeded.
*PAS:
- TotalFreedom: *PAS (tpas, spas, opas, etc) was originally a good idea when a very small amount of people could do it. It used to be limited to just seniors, and there was way less seniors back then. When you have so many people that can do this, you'll find that you get more and more admins exponentially. It's just an outdated concept, and promotes nepotism.
- KanyeCraft: It either doesn't exist, or there's a similar concept where higher executives or the owner can choose an admin. But it's probably not really a thing.
Ranking up:
- TotalFreedom: Ranking up is a huge part of the admin process on TotalFreedom. It does give an incentive to admins to work harder, but it also promotes power hungry admins, and it ultimately gives a reason to be an admin that has nothing to do with even the server itself. The ranking process creates a cultural divide even between the admins of the same server. This is almost entirely unheard of in other servers, but it's a huge problem here simply because of how many admins there are. And since there are multiple layers to being an admin, we're more likely to promote someone to super admin, because the rank means less.
- KanyeCraft: Ranking up exists, but it's probably only done when someone really deserves it, not because they've waited their turn. This still creates power hungry admins, but since there are far less admins than on TotalFreedom, it's not really an issue. It's not really a formal process like TotalFreedom has.
Admin culture:
- TotalFreedom: Oh boy, this is a big problem. We've tried reinforcing the idea that more admins equals less downtime for many years, and I think at this point it's just objectively false. The idea of having an admin on 24/7 is just a fundamentally impossible goal, and has been the excuse for having far more admins than we really need, to the point where we almost have more admins than players. The idea that we should shoot for quantity over quality is really a root cause of many issues we're currently facing.
- KanyeCraft: There probably isn't any admin culture. Admin culture only exists on TF because it's evolved to this point after so many years.
Another issue that I think is hurting the server a lot is how poorly we treat our players. The divide between the admins of the server and the players of this server is just intense. I've seen on very many occasions where OPs are just openly treated like garbage, simply because they're a lower rank. I have experienced this personally, when I wasn't an admin for a bit. Admins that did not know I was a past senior almost always treated me like shit, like I was subhuman. Dare question authority? Too bad. Admin disrespected you? Oh get over it. But no disrespecting admins! This also contributes to more people wanting to become admin, just so they actually feel respected. And if they don't decide to become an admin, they might just leave the server because it's just so hostile. So what does that mean? More admins, less players. So with all of this being said, how does more admins mean less players? Here's my little feedback loop to explain it. When a new player joins the server, here are the possibilities of things they will do next:
- Player joins the server and never becomes an admin, but stays: This is the ideal situation, and the situation that should be promoted more. However, it is being increasingly less common, which is TERRIBLE for the server.
- Player joins the server and becomes an admin: This is the less ideal situation, and I think it's being promoted far more than it should be. When a player becomes an admin, you have one less player.
- Player becomes admin and goes rogue: This is a cause and affect of the player having become admin. If he simply stayed a player all along, this scenario would have never occurred. And he probably caused some players to leave while he was at it.
- Player joins the server and leaves: If a player can't become admin, they might just leave. This is the worst possible scenario.
How do I propose we fix this?
So if you've read this far, perhaps you agree with me, perhaps you don't. Regardless, here are my pretty controversial suggestions, that you may or may not agree with:
1. Indefinitely close admin applications. Do this until we actually really need a new admin.
2. Stop giving rogue admins their power back so easily. If someone really proves they deserve it after a long time, maybe. But if we just keep giving people more and more chances, it just does so much harm to the server, and results in more drama.
3. Work to develop the community for the players. Advertise the server, give new opportunities for players, find a way to give a lasting sense of community, etc. Stop focusing on the admin community so much.
4. Admin purge. Purge a large amount of admins that simply aren't living up to the job. If that definition happens to include me, so be it.
5. Remove all applications for being promoted. Admins should be handpicked on who is best for the job, and then can be voted on. No more pity promotions.
6. Stop treating players like dogshit. You see it every day, even on the forum. Stop acting like admins are more entitled to respect, everyone deserves the same respect.
7. Just start gradually moving towards acting like a normal server. If we really want this server to survive, we need to do what works. 8. Freeze *PAS indefinitely. I don't have a complete solution on this, because it seems like it's not a completely dead concept, but it's also just so fundamentally broken in correspondence to my suggestions. Perhaps in the future allow only the executives to do it with limits, but many just remove it entirely. 9. Work towards quality over quantity. 10. Improve communication and transparency from executives and the owner. 11. Increase OP voting rights. Allow them to vote on permban appeals. Allow them to vote on new admins.
Now these changes would only work if we actually committed to them. No half measures. I think these changes are worth trying, but that really falls to the owner to decide. Now obviously more would be needed to, but this is just a start.
TLDR: More admins = Less players. More admins = more drama. More admins = more rogues. More rogues = less players. The server is structured to be a community for admins, when it should be geared towards the actual players.
KANYECRAFT DOESN'T EXIST IT'S A REPRESENTATION OF THE AVERAGE SERVER
I'LL PROBABLY ADD TO THIS OVER TIME
Disclaimer: I wrote this in an hour at school so there's probably errors, and I didn't include as much as I would have liked to. So first of all, there's definitely issues effecting this server. You're right that it's not too late, and that there isn't any easy solution. To be clear, I do think there is a solution to the problem, however it would be very hard to properly implement, simply because of how much we rely on it. But if people really want this server to survive, I think it should be considered. Now to start off, lets think of a normal minecraft server, we'll call it KanyeCraft. I'll use Kanyecraft as a reference between the average minecraft server and TotalFreedom. On this KanyeCraft, players probably have the incentive to keep coming back for a few obvious reasons: maybe because there's a real sense of community, they find it a lot of fun, or their friends play on it. Pretty similar to TotalFreedom. However, TF has one big difference: the incentive of becoming an admin. On KanyeCraft, less than 1% of the playerbase are admins, and the 99% are normal players who have no chance of becoming admin; this is fine for the players, because the server already fills up all their needs, and there is no incentive of becoming an admin. This is where my issue is. On TotalFreedom, there is a HUGE incentive to become admin. Now let's look at the possible reasons a normal player wants admin, and relate it to KanyeCraft player incentives I listed earlier: - There is almost no OP community on TF. No, seriously, it's almost non existent. In huge contrast to the admin community, which is actually rather large, and is growing. So as the OP community shrinks, the admin community grows. I will touch on this later.
- Being an admin is simply far more fun than being an OP. Just objectively, being an OP is just a bare bones experience when compared to the admin experience. And the players definitely know this.
- If their friend referred them to the server, their friend is probably an admin. And guess what? If their friend happens to be telnet or above, they can instantly make them an admin. So why stay an OP when every single sign points towards becoming an admin, which is objectively more fun?
So there's the problem. There's no point in staying a normal player when becoming an admin is more fun and easy. Whereas on KanyeCraft, becoming an admin is extremely hard, and probably less fun than being a normal player. So what causes becoming an admin on TF so easy while on KanyeCraft it's so hard? Four things: Admin applications, *PAS, ranking up, and admin culture. These four things are huge parts of TotalFreedom. I'll now compare and contrast all of these issues individually with TotalFreedom and the average server. Admin Applications: - TotalFreedom: Admin applications are opened almost the entire year. There is no real limit as to how many can be open, and there's never really a reason as to why they should be open. Now let's be clear, admin applications almost always fail, mostly because the applicant doesn't know what they're doing. But even if applications only succeed 5% of the time, considering how many applications there are, a considerable amount succeed. Especially when you consider that people can just try, over and over again until they eventually succeed. So now that dude is an admin, but did we really gain anything from that?
- KanyeCraft: Admin applications are either: nonexistent, almost never opened, only when they really need a new admin, or always open, but extremely strict. So let's suppose that the latter is true, and that applications are just really strict. Like, so strict that even if someone deserves admin, they won't get it because the server doesn't actually need any new admins. No one will become admin simply because they applied so many times that they finally succeeded.
*PAS:
- TotalFreedom: *PAS (tpas, spas, opas, etc) was originally a good idea when a very small amount of people could do it. It used to be limited to just seniors, and there was way less seniors back then. When you have so many people that can do this, you'll find that you get more and more admins exponentially. It's just an outdated concept, and promotes nepotism.
- KanyeCraft: It either doesn't exist, or there's a similar concept where higher executives or the owner can choose an admin. But it's probably not really a thing.
Ranking up:
- TotalFreedom: Ranking up is a huge part of the admin process on TotalFreedom. It does give an incentive to admins to work harder, but it also promotes power hungry admins, and it ultimately gives a reason to be an admin that has nothing to do with even the server itself. The ranking process creates a cultural divide even between the admins of the same server. This is almost entirely unheard of in other servers, but it's a huge problem here simply because of how many admins there are. And since there are multiple layers to being an admin, we're more likely to promote someone to super admin, because the rank means less.
- KanyeCraft: Ranking up exists, but it's probably only done when someone really deserves it, not because they've waited their turn. This still creates power hungry admins, but since there are far less admins than on TotalFreedom, it's not really an issue. It's not really a formal process like TotalFreedom has.
Admin culture:
- TotalFreedom: Oh boy, this is a big problem. We've tried reinforcing the idea that more admins equals less downtime for many years, and I think at this point it's just objectively false. The idea of having an admin on 24/7 is just a fundamentally impossible goal, and has been the excuse for having far more admins than we really need, to the point where we almost have more admins than players. The idea that we should shoot for quantity over quality is really a root cause of many issues we're currently facing.
- KanyeCraft: There probably isn't any admin culture. Admin culture only exists on TF because it's evolved to this point after so many years.
Another issue that I think is hurting the server a lot is how poorly we treat our players. The divide between the admins of the server and the players of this server is just intense. I've seen on very many occasions where OPs are just openly treated like garbage, simply because they're a lower rank. I have experienced this personally, when I wasn't an admin for a bit. Admins that did not know I was a past senior almost always treated me like shit, like I was subhuman. Dare question authority? Too bad. Admin disrespected you? Oh get over it. But no disrespecting admins! This also contributes to more people wanting to become admin, just so they actually feel respected. And if they don't decide to become an admin, they might just leave the server because it's just so hostile. So what does that mean? More admins, less players. So with all of this being said, how does more admins mean less players? Here's my little feedback loop to explain it. When a new player joins the server, here are the possibilities of things they will do next:
- Player joins the server and never becomes an admin, but stays: This is the ideal situation, and the situation that should be promoted more. However, it is being increasingly less common, which is TERRIBLE for the server.
- Player joins the server and becomes an admin: This is the less ideal situation, and I think it's being promoted far more than it should be. When a player becomes an admin, you have one less player.
- Player becomes admin and goes rogue: This is a cause and affect of the player having become admin. If he simply stayed a player all along, this scenario would have never occurred. And he probably caused some players to leave while he was at it.
- Player joins the server and leaves: If a player can't become admin, they might just leave. This is the worst possible scenario.
How do I propose we fix this?
So if you've read this far, perhaps you agree with me, perhaps you don't. Regardless, here are my pretty controversial suggestions, that you may or may not agree with:
1. Indefinitely close admin applications. Do this until we actually really need a new admin.
2. Stop giving rogue admins their power back so easily. If someone really proves they deserve it after a long time, maybe. But if we just keep giving people more and more chances, it just does so much harm to the server, and results in more drama.
3. Work to develop the community for the players. Advertise the server, give new opportunities for players, find a way to give a lasting sense of community, etc. Stop focusing on the admin community so much.
4. Admin purge. Purge a large amount of admins that simply aren't living up to the job. If that definition happens to include me, so be it.
5. Remove all applications for being promoted. Admins should be handpicked on who is best for the job, and then can be voted on. No more pity promotions.
6. Stop treating players like dogshit. You see it every day, even on the forum. Stop acting like admins are more entitled to respect, everyone deserves the same respect.
7. Just start gradually moving towards acting like a normal server. If we really want this server to survive, we need to do what works. 8. Freeze *PAS indefinitely. I don't have a complete solution on this, because it seems like it's not a completely dead concept, but it's also just so fundamentally broken in correspondence to my suggestions. Perhaps in the future allow only the executives to do it with limits, but many just remove it entirely. 9. Work towards quality over quantity. 10. Improve communication and transparency from executives and the owner. 11. Increase OP voting rights. Allow them to vote on permban appeals. Allow them to vote on new admins.
Now these changes would only work if we actually committed to them. No half measures. I think these changes are worth trying, but that really falls to the owner to decide. Now obviously more would be needed to, but this is just a start.
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serrif
Veteran Member
Posts: 440
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Post by serrif on Dec 16, 2018 23:13:40 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2018 23:14:18 GMT
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serrif
Veteran Member
Posts: 440
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Post by serrif on Dec 16, 2018 23:15:02 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2018 23:16:01 GMT
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