grntbg
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Post by grntbg on Jul 18, 2020 4:49:51 GMT
Some of these rules appear really vague and difficult to maintain. How are you going to punish "bigotry" (a word which in most dictionaries means "an obstinate devotion to one's own opinions") as that preys on the personal views of players? How will you maintain people who are "being a nuisance" (a nuisance is simply a person you're annoyed by) to other players?
Others are redundant: it doesn't need to be said that committing illegal activity is not permitted on these platforms. TotalFreedom isn't running an independent service, but hosts a community which is brought together through several different services (ProBoards, Discord, Minecraft, and so forth) which already forbid criminal activity on their services. Players sign to this fact when they make an account and tick that little box.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 5:28:47 GMT
Some of these rules appear really vague and difficult to maintain. How are you going to punish "bigotry" (a word which in most dictionaries means "an obstinate devotion to one's own opinions") as that preys on the personal views of players? How will you maintain people who are "being a nuisance" (a nuisance is simply a person you're annoyed by) to other players? Others are redundant: it doesn't need to be said that committing illegal activity is not permitted on these platforms. TotalFreedom isn't running an independent service, but hosts a community which is brought together through several different services (ProBoards, Discord, Minecraft, and so forth) which already forbid criminal activity on their services. Players sign to this fact when they make an account and tick that little box. If you are going out of your way to contentiously try to argue with someone with a differing opinion for hours on end, I'm considering that bigotry. If you go out of your way to attack someone because of a differing opinion, that's bigotry too. If you are constantly annoying a player by doing things such as standing in their way while they are trying to place a block, or spamming long fireworks in a room obstructing their view, you are being a nuisance. The redundant illegal activity rule I'm stating so it's absolutely clear.
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grntbg
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Post by grntbg on Jul 18, 2020 5:47:13 GMT
Some of these rules appear really vague and difficult to maintain. How are you going to punish "bigotry" (a word which in most dictionaries means "an obstinate devotion to one's own opinions") as that preys on the personal views of players? How will you maintain people who are "being a nuisance" (a nuisance is simply a person you're annoyed by) to other players? Others are redundant: it doesn't need to be said that committing illegal activity is not permitted on these platforms. TotalFreedom isn't running an independent service, but hosts a community which is brought together through several different services (ProBoards, Discord, Minecraft, and so forth) which already forbid criminal activity on their services. Players sign to this fact when they make an account and tick that little box. If you are going out of your way to contentiously try to argue with someone with a differing opinion for hours on end, I'm considering that bigotry. If you go out of your way to attack someone because of a differing opinion, that's bigotry too. If you are constantly annoying a player by doing things such as standing in their way while they are trying to place a block, or spamming long fireworks in a room obstructing their view, you are being a nuisance. The redundant illegal activity rule I'm stating so it's absolutely clear. And what you’ve just written needs to take the place of those existing rules which fail to offer context, because you can’t expect administrators to unilaterally judge everything by an unwritten standard. It’s a dandy prospect to have extremely simple non-descriptive rules but it isn’t practical. There exist standards for what makes legislation “plain English” text without compromising on substance from the perspective of an average user.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 9:01:43 GMT
Any reason this was not published in a draft form so the community could review it? Slightly concerned that the rules have (In my case literally) changed overnight without any warning, or the community having a chance to actually provide feedback.
Also,
If you're going to enforce a rule like that, you should make sure this conduct policy is identical for all platforms, and again, we shouldn't be banning people from all the platforms unless they break a rule on that platform, that's just silly...
You also have not included any sort of information on how things get escalated.
For example, I could advertise constantly and by those rules you shouldn't do anything more than mute / smite me... I could argue that repeatedly is over many weeks rather than very minutes...
The reason the old conduct policy for the server was so long was because we'd leant over time where rules get exploited or where they needed tweaking. I feel we've gone backwards in the conduct policy now and over-simplified it to the point where there are a lot of grey areas up for admin interpretation, which was a primary reason for wanting it re-written.
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elmon
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Post by elmon on Jul 18, 2020 9:13:31 GMT
For example, I could advertise constantly and by those rules you shouldn't do anything more than mute / smite me... I could argue that repeatedly is over many weeks rather than very minutes... Section 2c. 'Repeated offenses from Category 3 (Minor Offense).' The reason the old conduct policy for the server was so long was because we'd leant over time where rules get exploited or where they needed tweaking. I feel we've gone backwards in the conduct policy now and over-simplified it to the point where there are a lot of grey areas up for admin interpretation, which was a primary reason for wanting it re-written. It was so incredibly long and unbelievably redundant and outdated, nobody wanted to read that shit. You can make a suggestion to clarify certain rules if they're not clear enough for whatever reason.
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StevenNL2000
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Post by StevenNL2000 on Jul 18, 2020 9:14:03 GMT
This thread is not the first time people mention that making the policy shorter also makes it more vague. What I suggested a while ago was something like this: We can still do this, and I still think it would be a good idea because it makes the policy clearer without making it harder to read.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 9:17:04 GMT
Section 2c. 'Repeated offenses from Category 3 (Minor Offense).' Again, re-read my post. There is no clear definition of repeated and over which timeframe that applies. I'd be correct to interpret that as being over many months... Not many days or hours or mins. It was so incredibly long and unbelievably redundant and outdated, nobody wanted to read that shit. You can make a suggestion to clarify certain rules if they're not clear enough for whatever reason. Then they shouldn't have been an admin if they couldn't be bothered to read 1 reasonably long thread. I'm also not saying we should have kept it, but this shouldn't have literally changed overnight with no community input. We've had this argument on threads before where people in power make sweeping changes with zero input and they always end so well... If we'd had been consulted before, it might have ended up in a more polished state rather than at the moment where there are obvious gaps as has been identified on this thread. I am certainly for simplifying what we had, but we've IMO gone too far and over-simplified it to the point it's not effective now.
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Geek
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Post by Geek on Jul 18, 2020 9:17:33 GMT
this is good and all but i feel as if the blurb that was before the origional policy should still be there, saying something about how the coduct policy is not all encompassing and that if an admin feels like you are doing something worth banning they are allowed too and should make a suggestion to add the rule i think i have a screen shot of the text I agree. I like lots of the changes Seth has made (particularly who interprets rules avoids doubt in future) but I think people will look for loopholes. Section 1 used to have a rule about "other extremely serious offences" (or words to that effect) which I would be in favour of keeping. For a simple example, what if an admin goes rogue without "harming the server" e.g. griefing adminworld? That used to be a permban - not anymore. People will exploit loopholes. I think we need to find a way to keep that to a minimum.
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AshazTGA
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Post by AshazTGA on Jul 18, 2020 9:22:45 GMT
This rule is a loophole. Let's say you're in a country that allows cookie logging, and you perform it. You get banned from here because it's illegal in the US/UK, but one could argue that it's legal in their country. What do we do then? Y?ou can't use the excuse of the USA if they live somewhere else.
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fionn
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Post by fionn on Jul 18, 2020 9:28:12 GMT
This rule is a loophole. Let's say you're in a country that allows cookie logging, and you perform it. You get banned from here because it's illegal in the US/UK, but one could argue that it's legal in their country. What do we do then? Y?ou can't use the excuse of the USA if they live somewhere else. This is something I brought up whilst we were actually rewriting this- I adding in clarification (Under US & Canadian Law), got removed for some reason.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 9:30:51 GMT
This rule is a loophole. Let's say you're in a country that allows cookie logging, and you perform it. You get banned from here because it's illegal in the US/UK, but one could argue that it's legal in their country. What do we do then? Y?ou can't use the excuse of the USA if they live somewhere else. This is something I brought up whilst we were actually rewriting this- I adding in clarification (Under US & Canadian Law), got removed for some reason. We need to be more careful than that, I don't know US & Canadian law... I'd imagine most people on here don't including admins... We shouldn't be writing rules that require you to be a lawyer to know if you're breaking them or not...
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AshazTGA
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Post by AshazTGA on Jul 18, 2020 9:32:27 GMT
This is something I brought up whilst we were actually rewriting this- I adding in clarification (Under US & Canadian Law), got removed for some reason. We need to be more careful than that, I don't know US & Canadian law... I'd imagine most people on here don't including admins... We shouldn't be writing rules that require you to be a lawyer to know if you're breaking them or not... Well, it depends though because if you're DDOSing you're most likely to know that it's illegal before you do it.
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elmon
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Post by elmon on Jul 18, 2020 9:32:30 GMT
Then they shouldn't have been an admin if they couldn't be bothered to read 1 reasonably long thread But it's not intended only for admins, the policy is just as much for OPs. If it was necessary to have an unbelievably long conduct policy then most other servers would have one too For reference: this is hypixels 'behaviour that is not allowed:' Behaviour which is not allowed:
- Discrimination - negative comments related to skin colour, gender, or other personal qualities. - Overuse of bad language - Trolling players - Insulting other players in any way - Encouraging violence or hatred towards other players - Falsifying information about other players - Sharing another player’s personal information without their permission - Media Advertising - posting links to YouTube, Twitter, SnapChat etc (exception for YouTube rank) - Spamming - pasting the same or similar messages over and over - Intentionally avoiding the chat filter - Talking about self-harm, or other deeply negative experiences - Advertising giveaways (in Lobbies and forums)
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AshazTGA
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Post by AshazTGA on Jul 18, 2020 9:37:13 GMT
Then they shouldn't have been an admin if they couldn't be bothered to read 1 reasonably long thread But it's not intended only for admins, the policy is just as much for OPs. If it was necessary to have an unbelievably long conduct policy then most other servers would have one too For reference: this is hypixels 'behaviour that is not allowed:' Behaviour which is not allowed:
- Discrimination - negative comments related to skin colour, gender, or other personal qualities. - Overuse of bad language - Trolling players - Insulting other players in any way - Encouraging violence or hatred towards other players - Falsifying information about other players - Sharing another player’s personal information without their permission - Media Advertising - posting links to YouTube, Twitter, SnapChat etc (exception for YouTube rank) - Spamming - pasting the same or similar messages over and over - Intentionally avoiding the chat filter - Talking about self-harm, or other deeply negative experiences - Advertising giveaways (in Lobbies and forums)
I was 8 when I first read it and it was fine.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 18, 2020 9:41:18 GMT
We need to be more careful than that, I don't know US & Canadian law... I'd imagine most people on here don't including admins... We shouldn't be writing rules that require you to be a lawyer to know if you're breaking them or not... Well, it depends though because if you're DDOSing you're most likely to know that it's illegal before you do it. Yes, and my point is there are going to be different laws in different places, like legally speaking you all have to comply with GDPR because I live in the UK and otherwise the EU will rip you a new arsehole, but I'd imagine most people here wouldn't know the first thing about GDPR. We can't have rules that are "Yeah don't break the law" because it just doesn't work...
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