Geek
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Post by Geek on Jul 10, 2020 17:58:14 GMT
I think this sounds like a good idea. When I was a super there was logviewer which was helpful to look back through previously executed commands. Now that is gone (I think?), this would be a useful tool for supers to use. I would suggest that the damage a rogue admin can do over telnet is no greater than the damage they can cause in-game, given the same set of commands.
I trust our SAs, but some others (see above) don't. With that in mind, I would ask the following to those with greater understanding of the technical aspect of this than me: (1) Do admins disconnect from telnet when they are removed from admin status in-game? (2) If not, would it be possible to implement a command that seniors can use to "kick" (i.e. disconnect) an admin from telnet, to prevent rogue activity?
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Feueristic
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Post by Feueristic on Jul 10, 2020 18:05:21 GMT
Personally am all for remote access. As said multiple times in this thread, if executed properly, there is virtually no difference from a telnet console to MineChat.
However, I would like to raise another issue here - Is there any way to monitor admin activity in Telnet? This may be a little irrelevant to giving Supers Telnet access, but I want to raise awareness that if we are going to allow more people to access the server via non-ingame ways, then maybe we should have a way to monitor their activity not being ingame. It would be unfair for admins that actively administrate via telnet to be removed because they didn't "rake up enough hours" while being actually in game.
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nick
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Post by nick on Jul 10, 2020 18:08:38 GMT
I looked over the thread once again and with Ryan updating his original post which makes it a lot clear. If us Super admins are given Telnet Client access with the same permissions as in-game then I find no reason to object.
Also, seeing Geek's responds I'm also wondering if it's possible for not just seniors but also telnets to kick super admins from Telnet Client to prevent any rogue activity.
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Waspter
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Post by Waspter on Jul 10, 2020 18:09:30 GMT
I find no reason to give Super admins access to telnet because they're not trained for it What training does it require? Using Telnet requires no training whatsoever. What's wrong with Super admins just moderating in-game? It's better that way then giving out a tool that could be used in a wrong manner. And what's wrong with giving supers telnet access? If you're going by that logic, MineChat or Pickaxechat or whateverchat that doesn't require you to be in-game shouldn't be allowed. If people use it in the wrong manner, you can find out and sanction them accordingly -- same as telnets if they use it in the wrong manner. I also simply don't see any drawbacks to this suggestion. If you're arguing that supers can't be trusted then they shouldn't be an admin at all, since the damage you can do in-game is roughly the same as telnet.
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Darth
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Post by Darth on Jul 10, 2020 18:10:57 GMT
Personally am all for remote access. As said multiple times in this thread, if executed properly, there is virtually no difference from a telnet console to MineChat. However, I would like to raise another issue here - Is there any way to monitor admin activity in Telnet? This may be a little irrelevant to giving Supers Telnet access, but I want to raise awareness that if we are going to allow more people to access the server via non-ingame ways, then maybe we should have a way to monitor their activity not being ingame. It would be unfair for admins that actively administrate via telnet to be removed because they didn't "rake up enough hours" while being actually in game. I don't think activity in telnet should be logged or count towards the requirement. In-game activity is the most effective, and should be what holds the most weight. Activity through console can't be confirmed because you could claim you were in telnet for an hour when you only used it to do a couple commands for like a minute. Also some people leave their telnet client open and connected in the background so even if we did track it, the output wouldn't be accurate. Also speaking from experience, telnet isn't visually stimulating enough for most people to concentrate on it for extended periods of time. Admins should always join in-game when possible, and use telnet/other means as a backup.
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nick
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Post by nick on Jul 10, 2020 18:11:06 GMT
Personally am all for remote access. As said multiple times in this thread, if executed properly, there is virtually no difference from a telnet console to MineChat. However, I would like to raise another issue here - Is there any way to monitor admin activity in Telnet? This may be a little irrelevant to giving Supers Telnet access, but I want to raise awareness that if we are going to allow more people to access the server via non-ingame ways, then maybe we should have a way to monitor their activity not being ingame. It would be unfair for admins that actively administrate via telnet to be removed because they didn't "rake up enough hours" while being actually in game. I'm sure that we could add some new features to monitor the admins on the telnet, but the telnet itself is logged via your username & IP so anything you do is already logged in console and server logs.
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nick
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Post by nick on Jul 10, 2020 18:12:00 GMT
I find no reason to give Super admins access to telnet because they're not trained for it What training does it require? Using Telnet requires no training whatsoever. What's wrong with Super admins just moderating in-game? It's better that way then giving out a tool that could be used in a wrong manner. And what's wrong with giving supers telnet access? If you're going by that logic, MineChat or Pickaxechat or whateverchat that doesn't require you to be in-game shouldn't be allowed. If people use it in the wrong manner, you can find out and sanction them accordingly -- same as telnets if they use it in the wrong manner. I also simply don't see any drawbacks to this suggestion. If you're arguing that supers can't be trusted then they shouldn't be an admin at all, since the damage you can do in-game is roughly the same as telnet. I have made a new response above you, reading that may make it clear.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 10, 2020 18:15:07 GMT
(1) Do admins disconnect from telnet when they are removed from admin status in-game? (2) If not, would it be possible to implement a command that seniors can use to "kick" (i.e. disconnect) an admin from telnet, to prevent rogue activity? It certainly was a feature, I can't imagine it having been removed, but yes it was. Alternatively you do what we used to do which was to just reload the telnet plugin which wipes out the connections to it. There certainly are ways if it's no longer automated to make sure removed admins don't retain access. However, I would like to raise another issue here - Is there any way to monitor admin activity in Telnet? This may be a little irrelevant to giving Supers Telnet access, but I want to raise awareness that if we are going to allow more people to access the server via non-ingame ways, then maybe we should have a way to monitor their activity not being ingame. It would be unfair for admins that actively administrate via telnet to be removed because they didn't "rake up enough hours" while being actually in game. I think that's probably a different discussion, but to answer part of the question, everything you run is logged in the same way as if you were in game, so there is no way for an admin to run commands and it not be attributed back to them, everything you do is logged and audited back to you as an individual (Again, unless Seth's changed something major). Weather it should or shouldn't count towards activity time I guess for me would be the same answer to if it currently is, if telnet admins time is counted in game and on telnet I'd say it should, but if currently telnet admins still have to be in game for the time to count then obviously we shouldn't change this as part of this suggestion (Though feel free to raise a separate suggestion for that, it'd certainly be an interesting discussion).
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Darth
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Post by Darth on Jul 10, 2020 18:17:33 GMT
I don't think this kind of suggestion should have a poll. It allows people to vote 'no' without giving any logical arguments or explaining themselves.
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lyicx
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Post by lyicx on Jul 10, 2020 18:19:29 GMT
as much as it would be funny to make the key feature of having the telnet role avalible to supers and as much as it would be useful when im playing other games and busy with other things without loading up minecraft. i dont think its a good idea. afaik the only other thing you can do as telnet is use /saconfig (and have a sense of self rightiousness)
would kinda defeat the purpose of being telnet, as a compromise i would suggest giving telnets panel (so when the bot dies and telnet dies they can restart the server) or something along those lines but again would kinda defeat the purpose of the "telnet" role
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 10, 2020 18:20:51 GMT
I don't think this kind of suggestion should have a poll. It allows people to vote 'no' without giving any logical arguments or explaining themselves. I agree, but I was trying to be reasonable and people tend to get funny if there is no way to vote... So far nobody out of the 11 people that have voted no I think has given a valid explanation as to why they voted no, unfortunately I'm not sure there is a better way to do this without people thinking they have no way to give a yes / no which it seems now people want...
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 10, 2020 18:23:22 GMT
as much as it would be funny to make the key feature of having the telnet role avalible to supers and as much as it would be useful when im playing other games and busy with other things without loading up minecraft. i dont think its a good idea. afaik the only other thing you can do as telnet is use /saconfig (and have a sense of self rightiousness)would kinda defeat the purpose of being telnet, as a compromise i would suggest giving telnets panel (so when the bot dies and telnet dies they can restart the server) or something along those lines but again would kinda defeat the purpose of the "telnet" role I do mostly agree, but my suggestion for merging super and telnet admins together was shit on from a height and people didn't like it, so I'm hoping this is a more palatable way for us to give admins a better way to administrate... As for the rank names and such, a few people have already made suggestions around changing them, but again nothing to do with this. Is your only reason for objecting because it invalidates the need for having telnet as a rank? Because tbh I think that is a totally separate issue that I hope can be tackled after this is done and people realise that having the two ranks as they are is silly, for now I want to try and push this and to enable supers to as you say, be able to pull up telnet while on other games without having to launch MC.
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Kash
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Post by Kash on Jul 10, 2020 18:23:41 GMT
The way I think of this possibly happening is abolishing the Super Admin rank altogether, but making it harder to achieve Super Telnet Admin. Probably not the best idea, but just the first thing that came to my mind.
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Wild1145
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Post by Wild1145 on Jul 10, 2020 18:26:56 GMT
The way I think of this possibly happening is abolishing the Super Admin rank altogether, but making it harder to achieve Super Telnet Admin. Probably not the best idea, but just the first thing that came to my mind. If you take a look in the OP, there's a link to another thread where that was suggested but voted down. This suggestion just gives Super admins telnet access with the permissions that they already hold in that rank, no additional access or promotions or any of that stuff.
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elmon
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Post by elmon on Jul 10, 2020 18:28:26 GMT
I trust our SAs, but some others (see above) don't. With that in mind, I would ask the following to those with greater understanding of the technical aspect of this than me: (1) Do admins disconnect from telnet when they are removed from admin status in-game? (2) If not, would it be possible to implement a command that seniors can use to "kick" (i.e. disconnect) an admin from telnet, to prevent rogue activity? Admins should automatically disconnect from telnet when they are removed, however, currently if you are a Super Admin in telnet and get removed, TFM does not kill your telnet connection. This is a quick fix, however (like 1 line of code lol).
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